old joe Posted 12 July , 2012 Share Posted 12 July , 2012 On the subject of Victory Medals. I recently read a thread on another forum which implies that some veterans of the AEF 27th Division, which was attached for a time to the British Army, wore British Victory Medals as well as American. It is mentioned that they were erased so these must have been self awards in most or all cases. Was it possible for a soldier to be awarded the Victory Medals of two nations if he was attached for a time with another army? We know that a number of Americans served in the British, Canadian and French forces before the late entry of the U S into the war. If he went on to join the American forces after their late entry into the war he was supposed to receive the Victory Medal of the last nation he served with, but there must be cases where men received the awards of both. Are there any examples of British medal groups where Victory Medals of other nations are present along with the British Victory Medal? Here is a link to the thread where I saw this about the 27th Division: http://www.usmilitar...hp/t133699.html Regards, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 12 July , 2012 Share Posted 12 July , 2012 Hi Joseph, I think that this is an unlikely scenario and yet could be possible under certain circumstances. I remember that a group did appear about three or four years ago to an Indian Army officer which had both the British V.M. and also the Chinese V.M., although I cannot remember the recipients name I seem to think that he was serving in some diplomatic roll in China at the end of WW1 and somehow was awarded the Chinese V.M.(this medal has some enamelling on it unlike any other V.M.), and I seem to remember that the recipient drowned in a bathing accident soon after the war. Another group which appeared in a sale in 1992 was to a British officer of the Sherwood Foresters(Notts and Derby Regt) who had served at Gallipoli as a Major with the S.F. He later resigned his commission in the British Army(27 Nov 1917) and 2 hours later accepted a Majority in the U.S.Army, he was posted to the 18th U.S.Inf.Regt., 1st Division. He was Promoted Lt.Col. of the 3rd Bn, 18th Inf.Regt., and was killed in action by a high explosive shell on 27th April, 1918. This officer was Richard Henry Griffiths. Amongst other American medals he was awarded U.S.A. V.M. with one clasp Defensive Sector(this unamed as issued). He was also awarded the 1914/15 Star and B.W.M., these impressed correspondingly: Major R.H.Griffiths, Notts and Derby Regt and Major R.H.Griffiths. He was not awarded the British V.M.(all these details from Christies Auction Catalogue of 10th November, 1992) I am not sure if this answers your question--but at least it shows a couple of examples of groups with a slight difference from the norm!! Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old joe Posted 13 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 July , 2012 Old Owl-thanks very much and yes the information is most informative and helpful. Regards, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 July , 2012 Share Posted 13 July , 2012 Lt. David Wheeler, an MO in the 16th Infantry (1st US Division) , KiA on 18th July 1918, had a claim to the Victory Medals of no less than three nations.... French, British (Canadian) and US (he served in France with the American Red Cross 1914-15, the French Army 1915-16, the CEF 1916-17 and the US Army 1917-18) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 13 July , 2012 Share Posted 13 July , 2012 Lt. David Wheeler, an MO in the 16th Infantry (1st US Division) , KiA on 18th July 1918, had a claim to the Victory Medals of no less than three nations.... French, British (Canadian) and US (he served in France with the American Red Cross 1914-15, the French Army 1915-16, the CEF 1916-17 and the US Army 1917-18) Dave Hi Dave, Unless he resigned his commission in the U.S.Army and received a commission into either the French, British and Canadian armies then simply being on attachment, I don't think, would give him any entitlement to their victory medals. I suppose that he could have received a gallantry award from any of them but not a campaign medal. Of course I could be wrong? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 13 July , 2012 Share Posted 13 July , 2012 The institution of the rainbow-coloured ribbon was intended to obviate these very scenarios, and the complicated exchange of allied awards of this type. You qualified for the first one earned, no others, and any others are self-awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 July , 2012 Share Posted 13 July , 2012 Hi Dave,Unless he resigned his commission in the U.S.Army and received a commission into either the French, British and Canadian armies then simply being on attachment, I don't think, would give him any entitlement to their victory medals. I suppose that he could have received a gallantry award from any of them but not a campaign medal. Of course I could be wrong? Robert In this case, Robert, I think you are... Wheeler was a civilian volunteer in the Red Cross, then ,while in France, enlisted as a private into the French Army. After being badly wounded in September 1915, he was invalided from the French Army and returned to the USA. Moving north, he enlisted into the Canadian Army in 1916 and went back to France with the CEF. Upon the US entry into the war he resigned his commission in the CEF and transferred to the US Army (losing rank in the process). As you can see, he wasn't 'on attachment' to any of the armies, but was a fully fledged member of the armies of all three nations at differing periods of the war and qualified for their medals individually (French in 1915, British in 1916/17, US in 1917/18). Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 13 July , 2012 Share Posted 13 July , 2012 Hi Dave and Staffsyeoman, Dave, Ok, but you did not make this clear in your post--I assumed from what you said that he was on attachment as an M.O. with each of these forces. However Staffsyeoman may have a point!!?? But I am not quite sure how Richard Henry Griffiths could have self-awarded the U.S. V.M.?as oppose to the British one. Surely by this rule R.H.G. would have been issued with the British V.M., which if you check his MIC he clearly was not, because the entry is deleted and a note added: "to be admld by Washington U.S.A."--His 1914/15 Star and BWM were issued together by the Medal Office on 23/1/22. So by this example Wheeler would have received only the U.S. V.M. surely!!?? This does seem to be quite a minefield and seemingly open to interpretation. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcassell Posted 17 July , 2012 Share Posted 17 July , 2012 The eminent archaeologist Philip Langstaffe Ord Guy served in the French Foreign legion and the Machine Gun Corps and his medals include the French Commemorative War Medal and Victory Medal. I have attached his (somewhat confusing) MIC which might suggest he was only awarded the 1914-15 star and BWM. Notice that on the back side is a note that he applied for permission to wear his French medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 17 July , 2012 Share Posted 17 July , 2012 Hi, Interesting and confusing as you say, but it would appear that the 1914/15 Star and BWM were only issued on 6/11/46--which seems rather late? although he appears to have at first been rejected for any medal entitlement at all!! he must have managed to persuade someone finally that he should get the 1914/15 Star and BWM--quite unusual I would say. Have you ever checked his Officers service papers? This does appear to substantiate the fact that he was awarded the French V.M. (although there is no mention of this on the MIC) which is similar to R.H.Griffiths--which of course is mentioned and also contradicts Staffs Yeoman's theory and probably Croonaert's as well!!? Most interesting and enlightening. Thanks for posting this. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 17 July , 2012 Share Posted 17 July , 2012 What rank is he on the Star and BWM: Lieut./Capt., M.M.G.S. or Pte./Cpl., M.M.G.S. Sorry-- but I am assuming you have seen the medals? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcassell Posted 17 July , 2012 Share Posted 17 July , 2012 Sorry, I have not seen the actual medals, Someone wrote to me about 20 years ago and all I recall is that he enquired about Philip Guy getting both British and French War Medals but not the British Victory. The MICs were not available back then so I had no answer. I will try and dig up the letter but I do not recall any naming details. Since Guy was commissioned on 11 March 1915 I suspect his 1914-15 Star would be impressed Lieutenant MMGS. I think the MICs of both Griffiths and Guy support the theory that if a British soldier qualified for a foreign Victory Medal he got that rather than the British version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcassell Posted 17 July , 2012 Share Posted 17 July , 2012 Forgot to mention that his service record is not available at the NA - probably because he was a Lieutenant Colonel in World War 2. There is an interesting biography of him in Palestine Exporation Quarterly vol. 141 (3) p. 167-187. The article refers to service records held in Tel Aviv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 17 July , 2012 Share Posted 17 July , 2012 Sorry, I have not seen the actual medals, Someone wrote to me about 20 years ago and all I recall is that he enquired about Philip Guy getting both British and French War Medals but not the British Victory. The MICs were not available back then so I had no answer. I will try and dig up the letter but I do not recall any naming details. Since Guy was commissioned on 11 March 1915 I suspect his 1914-15 Star would be impressed Lieutenant MMGS. I think the MICs of both Griffiths and Guy support the theory that if a British soldier qualified for a foreign Victory Medal he got that rather than the British version Thanks GP. I am sure that you are correct on both these points, but it would be interesting to have first hand confirmation--which of course is well documented with the Griffiths group--which was in the collection of the late Hal Giblin--I don't need to say anymore!! Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted 30 August , 2012 Share Posted 30 August , 2012 The officer you mention who apparently received the British and (enamelled) Chinese VM was Lt Thomas Bryson. He had served as a Company Commander with the Chinese Labour Corps in France, and was accompanying a group of returnees to China, when he was killed in a bathing accident in a hotel swimming-pool in Singapore during a port stop there in April 1919. Actually, what he had received from China, for his services to the Chinese labourers in France, was not a VM (China didn't issue one in the Inter-Allied series), but the Order of the Striped Tiger, 5th Class, which is, indeed, enamelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 30 August , 2012 Share Posted 30 August , 2012 Hi Gregory, This makes sense, although I think that the group which I recall consisted of an IGS'54, Tibet, 1914/15 Star Trio and a Chinese medal. It was a note from the vendor which led me to believe that this was an extremely rare Chinese issue of the V.M. The officer was a Major and had served in the Indian Army and was also killed or drowned in a bathing accident--unfortunately I cannot for the life of me remember his name although I do remember that the group was on the site, 'Our Heritage War Medals' several years ago. Perhaps this was the same bathing incident? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted 31 August , 2012 Share Posted 31 August , 2012 Obviously not the same man, and not the same accident. if ever you do recall or find out the name, I'd be very interested to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royalredcross Posted 6 September , 2012 Share Posted 6 September , 2012 I am not sure about men, but women who served with non-Empire forces were asked to sign a guarantee that they would not accept commemorative medals from other nations if they accepted the British one. There are numerous instances in the medal rolls where the name is not ticked and has the annotation HO (hold over) Guarantee not received. This did not apply to decorations such as the CdeG etc. As has been pointed out, the reason for the establishment of the Victory Medal was to obviate exchange of commemorative medals between allies. Hence the similar winged victory design and common double rainbow ribbon. If anyone can be proved to have been issued two different Victory Medals, it is a mistake. NGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchener's Bugle Posted 9 September , 2012 Share Posted 9 September , 2012 Hi all, according to some comments made on the British Medals forum, the OMRS published a paper on the subject a few years back - I have not seen it myself but it should be possible to track it down. A member of that forum also stated that he had two Trio's to the same man, a South African who resigned his commission to serve again with British Forces on the Western Front. KB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcassell Posted 12 September , 2012 Share Posted 12 September , 2012 I would suggest that the situation with South Africa is a little different since from 1910 to 1931 it was a dominion of Great Britain and not a separate nation. Situations where men got both the GB Victory and SA Victory do occur. I have a South African issue trio to Gunner H.L. Dempers of the South African Heavy Artillery (he served in the GSWA campaign) as well as a British issue BWM and VM to Lieutenant H.L. Dempers - he was commissioned into MGC (Cavalry) in 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsowerby Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 I know another BMF member had a british bwm/vm to a chap who later served with the Belgian Army, receiving a belgian VM; iirc he had confirmation from the belgian embassy as to the award of the belgian vm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 14 December , 2012 Share Posted 14 December , 2012 I think I have seen a double victory medal on a rack. Would a museum display it, if no entitlement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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