jane_sandy Posted 10 July , 2012 Share Posted 10 July , 2012 Hi chaps, Any intell on where exactly this might have been? Am on the trail of the 2nd East Yorkshires in February 1915. They had a complex of trenches here, between Hill 60 and The Bluff ... next to Ravine Wood (now known as Molenbos). 'International Trench' was a shared trench apparently, hence the name. Trench B was manned by part of the 2nd Bn East Yorkshire Regiment on 17th February 1915. It was undermined by the enemy who then launched an assault following the blast. Today, this area lies in Domaine de Palingbeek and I've just returned from a visit during which I had hoped to pinpoint a mine crater. Although I spotted one in a field outside of Ravine Wood (where there are a chain of natural ponds), it's hard to tell whether this is the right one .... if indeed the actual crater still exists after four more years of warfare and nearly 100 years on. [incidentally, this is a most beautiful spot which has evolved - with a little professional help - into a natural paradise for walkers, cyclists and, indeed, family activities. I would thoroughly recommend its inclusion in any visit to the area.] Maybe the exact site will never be revealed or maybe I should look harder? I'm a real novice when it comes to this kind of 'field work', so would be most grateful for some advice. Very many thanks in advance & regards, Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 July , 2012 Share Posted 11 July , 2012 Annie, You question caught my attention immediately, for I spent dozens of hours in International Trench, but mine was in Boezinge, north of Ypres. However, the answer is here : the other I.T. is south of the canal (Ypres - Comines), in the Palingbeek Domein, village of Hollebeke (not Wijtschate as said in one of the postings, but corrected afterwards). http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=94154 Aurel (Edited : Sorry, realizing now is does not answer your problem. I am even confused now : was Int. Trench south of the canal ? For I see The Ravine was north of it, close to where now Woods Cemetery is. Confusing. That is indeed where there are 3 or so natural ponds.) Or were you referring to south of the canal, where the Golf Course is ? There are natural ponds there too. Hopefully someone knows the answer.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 July , 2012 Share Posted 11 July , 2012 The trench being held by the 2.East Yorks that was blown in by a mine (at 5.30am on the 17th Feb, not the 15th) was 'B.2' at Zwarteleen but, earlier in February they had been immediately north of the canal (though 'D' Coy occupied positions on the southern bank). The (unofficially named) 'International Trench' referred to in the Wyrall history (but not in the War Diary as far as I can see (but I only glanced at it)) was later renamed to 'Wine Street' and did, indeed, run through Ravine Wood. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane_sandy Posted 11 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2012 Hi Aurel, Somehow I knew you'd pick this one up - I've been reading other posts you've made with great interest! Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. The area I'm interested in is North of the Yser-Comines Canal. The trenches run in a diagonal line (roughly) from The Bluff to the village of Verbrandenmolen, not quite reaching the village. They were, as far as I can tell, just to the East of Ravine Wood. I see Dave has now replied too ... so I'll continue in a reply to him also. Your interest and support is much appreciated. Many thanks & regards Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane_sandy Posted 11 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2012 Dave, Very many thanks for piling in and picking up on the story. Looks like my 'field work' has been rather unsatisfactory ... it would have been better if I'd been in the right place!!! However, it is now a lovely location ... Palingbeek, that is. The subject of my research (Pte George NEWMAN) did indeed die on 17th February - thanks for picking up on my earlier error (which for future clarity, I'll correct/edit). It was not completely clear from the material I had that Zwarteleen was a 'different' location - although I was aware of a village by that name. Is there any chance that you have any image/maps of the trenches in the Zwarteleen area? Or maybe you know of their existence. Do you also happen to know if the mine crater caused by the explosion under trench B.2 is still visible? I noted that Caterpillar Crater is highlighted locally, but seem to recall that it was created during the series of explosions along the Messines Ridge two years later, in 1917. I will be examining histories and diaries of other regiments in the division too, quite often you can triangulate to form a fuller picture. Thanks once again & kind regards Annie PS: Our ground work did not entirely go to waste - apart from enjoying the lovely well-maintained countryside, we established that the Palingbeek Visitors Centre lies on the site of the former Bn HQ at Ferme la Chappelle ... and caused quite a stir in their front office! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 July , 2012 Share Posted 11 July , 2012 I've nothing for the right time (agonisingly, I've got the area slightly to the north well covered for this period!), but this map from a little later is pretty clear, even though the German line is slightly more advanced than it was in February 1915. Reading the descriptions I believe 'B2' to have been in the area of the two mine craters depicted in the centre of the image (way behind the German frontline by the time of the map). Unfortunately for you, this would mean that there is no longer anything to see as its now been built over (if travelling from Zillebeke, turn right at the 'Hill 60' sign and you're exactly on the site... its now a road junction!) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 July , 2012 Share Posted 11 July , 2012 This (rotated) trench sketch map dating from December 1914 confirms my above supposition... B trench is on the Hill 60 side of the road. The moment that you turn off the main road towards Hill 60 , you're on the spot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 July , 2012 Share Posted 11 July , 2012 Another (later dated - 1916) map with the area highlighted.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 July , 2012 Share Posted 11 July , 2012 Annie & Dave, Let it be clear : the Palingbeek (Bluff) area is not really my specialty. That is the reason I went back there a week ago, and joined this Topic : to learn more. Especially from Dave !) I had already scanned these two pics, aerial photo Ravine, and part of the Bluff area (Palingbeek) with the Ravine just south of #6, before I saw Dave's posting, making me realize that the area you were after is Zwarteleen. I'll post them anyway, Others who might want to learn too, might find them useful. (On the aerial photo, 14 March 1916, the Ravine (darker stripe) is recognizable, with two water-filled mine craters bottom right corner.) Both pics taken from : Van The Bluff naar die Grosse Bastion - Het provinciaal domein De Palingbeek tijdens de Eerste Wereldoorlog, Wandeling van 10 km, 7,5 km of 4,3 km, tekst Dominiek Dendooven, s.d. Aurel Photo 1 Photo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 July , 2012 Share Posted 11 July , 2012 The small pencil-drawn 'salient' on this December 1914 trench sketch map also depicts the area shown in post #7 ('B.2' later being described as an extremely exposed position slightly advanced of the main line and suffering from much enfilade fire - looks like that's the place then!) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane_sandy Posted 11 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2012 Dave, Wow ... very many thanks for the images and the intell. I'm happy that the mystery has been solved. The only irony is that we went to Hill 60 - only because it was there, not that we needed to see it - right after checking out Palingbeek for a second time and finding that small crater in a field near Ravine Wood! The really funny thing is that I was looking for a cafe with a rest room, the Hill 60 Cafe was closed, so I reckon I walked right up to the road junction you mention ... I just checked again on Streetview! It's a fairly modern housing development. Bizarre or what? Aurel, Many thanks for the further info on Palingbeek, or rather from the literature ... we have the same book, only in English! I'll study it carefully again, as I am still interested in the site, but in a different context now - the 2nd East Yorkshire Regt was there BEFORE going onto Zwarteleen. How amazing that you and I were probably wandering around the Domain in the same timeframe - we went on Friday 29th June and again on Monday 2nd July ... around the middle of the day. When were you there? Incidentally, I have contact details for a guy who is a local 'expert' - work has prevented me from writing to him so far, but I'll be sure to post again if there is some more detail relevant to your/our studies. I hope soon that my eye will be 'in' to look properly at trench maps and aerial views - this is my first encounter and I'm finding it tough. Talking of encounters, do you know of the 'Kenningszentrum' (knowledge/research centre) at the IFF Museum in Ieper? We dropped in there (to find out what resources they held, with a view to returning later this year) and discovered they have a selection of regimental histories and a cabinet containing some trench maps, plus a new PC-based system. The latter is basically a map with green dots on, if you click on a dot an aerial shot of that area appears. I believe this is a collation of allied and enemy photographs. Well, it may actually be small beer to you guys, but I thought I'd flag it up anyway. Very many thanks to you both for your time, interest and efforts on my behalf. With kindest regards Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 12 July , 2012 Share Posted 12 July , 2012 Annie, No, I was in the Palingbeek Domein on Saturday 7 July, in the afternoon, with an American friend. I was not near the Ravine , but at the Bluff, wanting to see the craters (again). And the Documentatiecentrum of the IFFM I know very well, though I have not been back since they are located now in the Cloth Hall. In your posting, to Dave, you mention "that small crater in a field near Ravine Wood". Is that a crater that can be seen in the bottom lefty corner (actually a double crater) of the aerial view that I posted, taken from Dominiek Dendooven's booklet ? One day I may go back there, maybe in winter, when there is more visibility, less foliage. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane_sandy Posted 12 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2012 Aurel, Ahhh ... so we missed by a few days! It would have been too great a coincidence! That crater I mentioned is a small single crater. If I'm looking at the right one in the aerial view, that's not it. The one we saw was just on the cafeteria side of Molenbos. There's a small road (called Molenbos itself I believe) with a few houses, then it becomes parkland ... if you continue straight down to a grassy crossroads, on your left is this small crater. I tried to insert a photo, but it didn't work. Kind regards Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 July , 2012 Share Posted 13 July , 2012 Thanks, Annie. Next time I am there I will look out for it. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 That small crater was dug by the Palingbeek workers in mid 2011, which is why it's not on the aerial photo. It think it must be part of improving the tourist experience 2014-18. But opposite it are the two Ravine craters, not pretty much impossible to make out anymore due to natural forces over 97 years. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curlew1919 Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 (edited) On 10/07/2012 at 23:30, jane_sandy said: Hi chaps, Any intell on where exactly this might have been? Am on the trail of the 2nd East Yorkshires in February 1915. They had a complex of trenches here, between Hill 60 and The Bluff ... next to Ravine Wood (now known as Molenbos). 'International Trench' was a shared trench apparently, hence the name. Trench B was manned by part of the 2nd Bn East Yorkshire Regiment on 17th February 1915. It was undermined by the enemy who then launched an assault following the blast. Today, this area lies in Domaine de Palingbeek and I've just returned from a visit during which I had hoped to pinpoint a mine crater. Although I spotted one in a field outside of Ravine Wood (where there are a chain of natural ponds), it's hard to tell whether this is the right one .... if indeed the actual crater still exists after four more years of warfare and nearly 100 years on. [incidentally, this is a most beautiful spot which has evolved - with a little professional help - into a natural paradise for walkers, cyclists and, indeed, family activities. I would thoroughly recommend its inclusion in any visit to the area.] Maybe the exact site will never be revealed or maybe I should look harder? I'm a real novice when it comes to this kind of 'field work', so would be most grateful for some advice. Very many thanks in advance & regards, Annie This posting has just caught my eye as interesting. My great uncle Frank Monaghan Private 3428 “D” Coy 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers was killed around here De Palingbeek (The eel brook) on the 20th February 1915. He and others were buried at a cemetery at La Chapelle Farm. Landgoed Palingbeek today (eel brook estate) Which was later destroyed and bodies never recovered. Their names later added to memorials to the missing Here is what 2nd NF War Diary has: Saturday 20th February 1915. Arrived at billets at Kruisstraat at 5am. Battalion billeted in houses on each side of the street. At 4 pm Battalion was called out and ordered to proceed to La Chapelle Farm, and on reaching this point were moved up into a large wood. At 11.15pm orders were received to attack two post trenches in conjunction with the Cheshire Regiment. First attack consisting of 60 men of A Company, 60 men of C Company and 60 men of D Company in 3 lines moved through a thick wood and came to an Abatiss in front of the trench they were attacking. (An Abatiss was a field fortification consisting of an obstacle formed of the branches of trees laid in a row, with the sharpened tops directed outwards, towards the enemy. The trees are usually interlaced or tied with wire. Abatiss are used alone or in combination with wire entanglements and other obstacles) And in getting through this and attempting to charge were practically wiped out. Lieutenant’s Legard, Brownlow and Jenkins being wounded. A second attack ordered for 2am consisting of B Company and details of D and A Company up to 150 men failed also for the same reason as the first. Battalion was withdrawn at 5am and marched back to Kruisstraat Casualties for night of 20th and 21st 30 Officers wounded and 61 other ranks 6 Other ranks killed and 40 missing. Sunday 21st February 1915. Spent the day in billets at Kruisstraat and in the evening moved out at 9pm to the Infantry Barracks at Ypres. Casualties for second period in trenches 5 Officers wounded. 20 other ranks killed, 105 wounded, 43 missing. Monday 22nd February 1915. Spent the day in the Infantry Barracks at Ypres. In the evening received orders to move back next morning to Bailleul. Men were given new boots which were urgently required. Tuesday 23rd February 1915. Marched at 6.30am via Vlamertinge and Westoutre to Bailleul which we reached at 11.30am and were placed in Billets in a side street off Main Square. Battalion left the 28th division and joined the 5th division for a month due to the heavy casualties in the 5th division. There are 33 soldiers of 2nd NF from that time commemorated, 29 on the Menin Gate to the missing and 4 in a cemetery Edwin Abbott. L/ Serjeant 2894. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 William Whitfield Anderson. Private 3110. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Bertie George Annetts. Serjeant 7878."B" Coy. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Thomas Blades. Private 8930. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Alexander Robertson Boothman. From Jarrow Private 2822. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 John Burn. Private 8806. Bedford House Cemetery William Burnip. Serjeant 7839. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 John Butler. Private 3295. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 James Michael Cavagin. Private 2923. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Thomas Alfred Charlesworth. L/Cpl. 1627. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Peter Cornwall. Private 8735. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 William Donnison. Private 12743. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Harry Forrester. L/Cpl. 2706. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 William Arthur Fuller. Private 2308. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 John Gilbert Hope. Private 8745. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 William Arthur Hurley. Private 2293. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Samuel Albert Jackson. Serjeant 1131. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 George Jewitt. Private 3513. Boulogne Eastern Cemetery William Campbell McDonald. Cpl. 2640. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Frank Monaghan. Born and lived Jarrow Private 3428. Hooge Crater Cemetery (Special Memorial) Henry Morriss. Serjeant 1271. "A" Coy. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Joseph Nutley. Private 3408 "B" Coy. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 58 John James O'Hare. Private 8321. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 8 Tom Priestley. L/Cpl. 819. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Robert Reed. Private 2459. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 8 James Robertson. Private 8768. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 58 John Rudd. Private 2354. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 8 Arthur Slingsby. L/Cpl. 475. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Hugh Smith. Private 2458. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 8 John Ernest Spencer. Private 3049. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 8 Frederick Webb. Private 3141. (Dow) Bedford House Cemetery Wilfred George Woodward. Serjeant 9798. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel 12 Joseph Wright. Born and lived Jarrow Private 3416. Ypres (Menin Gate) panel Addendum 16th May 2017 (This may help someone researching the same) The Diary states 20 died and 43 missing at that time in Palinbeek Woods - north east of La Chapelle Farm which totals 63 So that's still another 30 of 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers missing and unaccounted for in Palingbeek Woods on the 20th February 1915? Where there 30 POWs captured? Edited 12 November , 2022 by Curlew1919 More info turned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 Curlew1919, I don't know if this may help. In my notes, I find (re La Chapelle Farm Cem., which was next to the present Chester Farm Cem.) : "17 British graves, Febr-March 1915. Later moved to Hooge Crater Cemetery". Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curlew1919 Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 (edited) Thank you for replying Aurel If you look at the list of names you will see Frank Monaghan. Born and lived Jarrow Private 3428. Hooge Crater Cemetery (Special Memorial) They could not find Frank Monaghan's grave or his body at La Chapelle Farm Cemetery The headstone at Hooge Crater Cemetery (Special Memorial) is as it says just a memorial His remains are still somewhere at the old La Chapelle Farm Cemetery site Todays Langoed Palingbeek (which I take to mean eels brook estate) Out of the other 31 on that list 2 were buried at the Field Hospital site at Bedford House Cemetery The other 29 are on the memorial to the missing at Menin Gate So they too were either buried at La Chapelle Farm Cemetery and they could not find the bodies to rebury them Or As I think their remains are still out in Palinbeek (eels brook) Forest along with many others like the 2nd Cheshires fighting alongside them And the 1st Bedfordshires, 1st Dorsetshires and 1st Lincolnshires in the trenches there February 1915 And what about the 31 missing according to the official 2nd NF War Diary? (it states 20 killed and 43 missing = 63 and the 32 accounted for in my last post which leaves 31 not accounted for) Were the 31 taken prisoner? (I don't think so) According to this lad Henry Guy who was there There was 1200 charged (more than half the 2nd NF and more than half the 2nd Cheshires) on one night on the 20th February and only 210 returned to the trenches? Mind the officers sharp pulled them out of the action after one night of fighting They had next to nobody left to protect them Letter off Private Henry Guy 3419 of 2nd NF 19th March 1915 Edited 16 May , 2017 by Curlew1919 additions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curlew1919 Posted 18 May , 2017 Share Posted 18 May , 2017 (edited) Update: Just had a really fast response from CWGC (I sent them the letter in my above post plus a few more) Here it is (name of lady in Records section protected) Thank you for your email and the attachments you kindly sent regarding Private Monaghan. You will be pleased to hear that we have amended our records and this will appear on the website at the next update and where possible we will make arrangements to amend the special memorial headstone. Thank you again for bringing this to our attention. Kind regards ***** ******* Records Section ***** ******* Records Administrator Research/Library Commonwealth War Graves Commission 2 Marlow Road, Maidenhead, Berkshire, SL6 7DX, United Kingdom Tel: +44 1628 634221 | Ext: 1201 | Direct: +44 1628 507201 | Fax: +44 1628 771208 | Website: www.cwgc.org So at the next update at CWGC: Frank Monaghan Private 3428 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers Age 23 who died on 22nd February 1915 Will be amended to: Frank Monaghan Private 3428 ‘D’ Coy. 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers Age 23 who died on 20th February 1915 So what some will say? On the 20th February 2nd NF were at Palingbeek Woods north east of La Chapelle Farm On the 22nd February 2nd NF were at the Infantry Barracks at Ypres (5 to 6 kilometres away) En route to Bailleul next day over the border in France 20 kilometres away "What a difference a day makes"..... Edited 23 May , 2017 by Curlew1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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