CWGC Debt of Honour Database - Problems?

[Seadog]

Sent to the CWGC today:

Dear Ms Barker

Many thanks for your response. I remain unconvinced that the signage project will achieve any positive results from the expenditure required in terms of encouraging the casual passer-by to visit the cemetery and look for the graves which I presume is one of the reasons why the signs are to be erected. It comes as a great surprise to me that war dead buried in private grave plots in most cases with other family members are described as “War Graves” which is a description I will continue to associate with graves containing formal CWGC headstones bearing in mind that many of the families of these persons did not chose to have a CWGC headstone erected when offered.

In respect of the costs involved I am again surprised that the Commission have apparently no idea of the sums involved bearing in mind that the vast majority of financial support for the project no doubt comes from the UK Government via the taxpayer. Perhaps you will be kind enough to inform me of the anticipated costs as and when they are known for I cannot believe that the Commission would enter into such a project without first having some idea of the costs involved.

Regards

Norman

Norman

[bmac]

Would not this whole business about CWGC signage be better off under its own topic heading? It bears no relation to the original CWGC database subject matter.

[Hywyn]

bearing in mind that many of the families of these persons did not chose to have a CWGC headstone erected when offered.

Norman

Was it the choice of the family though. My understanding is that here in Wales many non denomination cemeteries (or rather, the committes who ran them in that era) refused the official headstone. My village has two cemeteries with war graves. The churchyard has 5 graves with CWGC headstones whilst the non denomination cemetery has 7 graves, all 'private'.

Hywyn

[CGM]

Norman, now that it is clear that it is the manner of the loss of life rather than the memorial stone on the grave which determines war grave status does this help all to become clear when considering the question of why the CWGC is seeking to do some work on private graves?

This post is off topic for this thread so I will go and find the thread concerned, add a reply and put a link to it here.

CGM

Edited to add the link CWGC UK War Graves Appeal

[CGM]

Many private graves pre-date the design and introduction of the CWGC headstones so many were already marked by private headstones. In these cases the CWGC stone was not turned down.

[Phil Wood]

WORLD WAR ONE 1914-1918

WORLD WAR TWO 1939-1945

This Cemetery contains

COMMONWEALTH WAR GRAVES

AND

PRIVATE MEMORIALS

TO THE DEAD OF

THE TWO WORLD WARS

Cwgc.org

The problem with such wording is that many cemeteries and graveyards do contain private memorials - gravestones recording the loss of a family member buried in some corner of a foreign land. These are not war graves and do not fall within the remit of the CWGC. The CWGC have no idea where these are - nor do most church and cemetery authorities - such memorials are gradually are being lost to the ravages of time.

If the CWGC are to put notices outside cemeteries and churchyards to record the existence therein of war graves - will they also be supplying registers recording the names of the deceased and the locations of the graves?

[David_Underdown]

With the increasing prevalence of smartphones perhaps paper registers are becoming less necessary? It might be useful if the signage gave the CWGC name for the cemetery (not always the name by which it would generally be known locally) and/or its database ID number (and maybe even a QR code to link direct to the relevant cemetery webpage). Of course phone coverage can be patchy in remote areas do this may not be a universal panacea

I still cannot see any major drawbacks to the scheme, or any reason why it should not be considered valid expenditure. It seems avoid way to raise general awareness of the presence of war graves. I really cannot understand given that Norman is usually demanding a higher profile from the CWGC in terms of telling us about interments and so on why he has such a bee in his bonnet about this issue

[keithmroberts]

I presume that the signs will be standardised to keep the cost within reasonable limits. We are used to seeing such signs in France, outside communal cemeteries, and although detail would be helpful, I am sure that the cost of unique signage at each location would be prohibitive.

Keith

[Phil Wood]

In most cases there will only be a few graves, only in the bigger municipal cemeteries would a register run to more than a page or two. Many churches would probably find space on their notice board if asked nicely. While it is easy enough to spot CWGC headstones (once you know what you are looking for), the family stones on war graves are far more difficult to locate - so a register would be a real help.

[CGM]

............... Many churches would probably find space on their notice board if asked nicely.

What a good idea Phil.

Members of a church I visited recently know exactly where all their war graves are, including the one which had a private gravestone, but that isn't always true.

At another church I visit a member of the RBL places a poppy cross on all the CWGC marked war graves every November and then I go and add one to all the remaining war graves which have a private gravestone.

[CGM]

Sent to the CWGC today:

Dear Ms Barker

............. It comes as a great surprise to me that war dead buried in private grave plots in most cases with other family members are described as “War Graves” which is a description I will continue to associate with graves containing formal CWGC headstones bearing in mind that many of the families of these persons did not chose to have a CWGC headstone erected when offered.

Regards

Norman

Norman

Norman, your statement, to me reads that you think the families who turned down CWGC headstone, preferring a family stone, did so because they did not approve of the CWGC.

Yet, reading the inscriptions on many of these stones, it seems to me that the families were often very proud of their relative who died and would also have been very proud to have the grave designated a war grave.

[Seadog]

From the CWGC: today:

Dear

Thank you for your reply. I think we all have to wait and see if the project brings about the results we are hoping for which is to raise awareness. As The Commission is responsible for the commemoration of members of the Commonwealth Forces who died during the two World Wars we have never chosen to distinguish between those that have a Private Memorial due to a family decision made at the time or a Commission Headstone. In relation to your request concerning the costs of the project we will be able to advise you of the costs incurred at the end of the project.

Yours

Cheryl Barker

My Reply today:

Dear Ms Barker

Thanks again for the prompt reply, as I stated in an earlier mail on this subject I have no doubt that the CWGC did not intend to make any differentiation between those war dead commemorated by a CWGC headstone and those buried and recorded in a private family grave plot. However in my opinion this is what the Commission will inadvertently achieve by the wording on the proposed signage as displayed on your web site which clearly states:

At this location there are

COMMONWEALTH WAR GRAVES

Which in many cases is completely inaccurate due to the presence of the private graves as already mentioned. It should not beyond the skills of the CWGC to account for this fact on the signage and I sincerely believe that this is what should be done. I thank you for the comment regarding the cost of these signs and look forward to receiving the information in due course.

Regards

Norman

[Simon Mills]

In most cases there will only be a few graves, only in the bigger municipal cemeteries would a register run to more than a page or two. Many churches would probably find space on their notice board if asked nicely. While it is easy enough to spot CWGC headstones (once you know what you are looking for), the family stones on war graves are far more difficult to locate - so a register would be a real help.

I think that the idea of some form of signage is a good one. My own local churchyard actually has four graves listed on the CWGC database, but only two of them have a standard CWGC headstone -- the third is a private grave for a sergeant in the RAF Volunteer Reserve (killed in 1941) and the fourth (a 2nd lieutenant in the artillery, also killed in 1941) is in a family plot, so there is no visible sign of his military heritage at all. Interestingly I also came across a fifth grave, visible only by a small marker which turns out to have been the grave of a woman killed by a V1 in June 1944, yet although civilians are now recorded by the CWGC, for some reason her name does not appear to be on the database. Possibly time for a letter...

The one military grave in the cemetery which everyone seems to know is that of a seaman (Edward Robinson) who won the VC in 1854, but the other graves (in this case all WWII) are scattered around the cemetery, although the area is well maintained by the parish council. I'm reasonably sure that a standard CWGC sign at the entrance to the cemetery would be welcomed by the parish council, but whether or not they would leave some form of plan outside is another matter. Perhaps they should as the clerk to the council says that he spends a lot of his time showing people where the graves are located -- he probably spent half an hour with me today...

S.

[Phil Wood]

My Reply today:

Dear Ms Barker

Thanks again for the prompt reply, as I stated in an earlier mail on this subject I have no doubt that the CWGC did not intend to make any differentiation between those war dead commemorated by a CWGC headstone and those buried and recorded in a private family grave plot. However in my opinion this is what the Commission will inadvertently achieve by the wording on the proposed signage as displayed on your web site which clearly states:

At this location there are

COMMONWEALTH WAR GRAVES

Which in many cases is completely inaccurate due to the presence of the private graves as already mentioned. It should not beyond the skills of the CWGC to account for this fact on the signage and I sincerely believe that this is what should be done. I thank you for the comment regarding the cost of these signs and look forward to receiving the information in due course.

Regards

Norman

Sorry Norman you are wrong - the presence of a CWGC headstone is not what makes a grave a Commonwealth War Grave, it is the presence within the grave of someone who qualifies for commemoration by the CWGC that makes it a war grave. If it is on the CWGC database it is a Commonwealth War Grave. What can be difficult is locating privately marked war graves - hence the usefulness of a register.

[Seadog]

Forgive me for the having the temerity for seeming to comment on the CWGC but see below for two examples of saved addresses from the D of H database which with all the rest have worked splendidly to date. Except for today that is, perhaps members can click on them and see the message that appears.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2939210

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=725015

This is not related to the original topic of this thread and must be my fault

Norman

Added: Here is the result of a new search on the second one above (725015)

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/725015/ADLAM,%20HARRY

Will any previously saved records still work?.

Added yet again: Try clicking on any of these

http://www.codnor.in...-forget-WW1.php

[W.J.Caughey]

Hi seadog and Co, today all my links to CWGC are not working, would some kind person check my website please, hope this isn't permanent.

Working ok the other day

Thanking you in advance

Walter

[Seadog]

Walter, I have checked all mine and looked at other similar sites which use such links and all are affected this is why I included a link to a site other than the examples from my own. I have (yet again) contacted the CWGC with regard to this which must be an error on their part so hopefully the problem will be rectified. This is similar to what happened after the last "update" by the CWGC which was reversed and the software amended following an outcry from users.

Here is an email address if you would also like to contact the CWGC.

ukaoffice@cwgc.org

Regards

Norman

[W.J.Caughey]

Norman, hope its only a hitch thank goodness, will leave for a day or two, thanks for email address.

The link on my links page i have to their Website still works.

Walter

[Seadog]

Walter if the CWGC have altered the structure of the individual record URL then this will I am afraid be permanent unless brought to their attention. Of course this may be a one-off problem which is rectified very soon but somehow I doubt it if the last time these identical symptoms occurred is anything to go by!

Regards

Norman

[David_Underdown]

Looks like the redirect isn't working, whether by accident or design who knows (probably the former, I tend to believe in cock-up over conspiracy).

Note that the final part of the new style URL (the casualty's name) is not necessary, and the id for the casualty remains the same, so it's pretty straightforward to update URLs if necessary. You can just do a find and replace on "search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=" and replace it with "find-war-dead/casualty/" and add another "/" at the end of the URL (edit, cause it doesn't work without the final /)

[Seadog]

I know that David, trouble is that it depends on how many you have to amend and surely after the last mess-up this should not have happened. You will recall that the CWGC then apologized for not realizing that users were linking the records to other sites such as Rolls of Honour! Following which the update was reversed and the software amended so that stored links would continue to function. So what has happened here?, plus or course Geoffs Search Engine is now defunct.

Norman

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

Yep, my favourites link also stopped working.

Had to replace it with

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx

Regards,

Graeme

[Seadog]

Graeme perhaps we can give a hand to our member Walter when he has to manually amend all of his links.

See here:

http://www.ourheroesinmemoriam.com/

Plus of course the multitude of other users involved.

Regards

Norman

[keithmroberts]

Has anyone made a polite enquiry of the CWGC? I would be very surprised to find that they had changed the intended design in view of the intensive review that they held after the initial debacle, and the fact that to make the change would be to move significantly away from the specification that they set for the tender.

Keith

[Seadog]

Yes Keith I did this yesterday and await a reply (see email link). It would be good for those concerned to do the same then at least the CWGC will be aware of the situation which of course may not have been a deliberate policy on their part.

Regards

Norman