CWGC Debt of Honour Database - Problems?

[Seadog]

Some visitors may "pop in", really?

I am sure that the CWGC did not intend to ignore the fact that in the civil cemeteries there are many private memorials to the war dead without a CWGC headstone, but it looks from the signage that this is indeed what they have done. Here is the sort of sign I would like to have seen but there again in common with everything they do any such suggestions are far too late for the 3,000 signs already produced.

WORLD WAR ONE 1914-1918

WORLD WAR TWO 1939-1945

This Cemetery contains

COMMONWEALTH WAR GRAVES

AND

PRIVATE MEMORIALS

TO THE DEAD OF

THE TWO WORLD WARS

Cwgc.org

Norman

[Chris_Baker]

Have you contacted the CWGC to make your observations and complaints regarding this matter, Norman?

[CGM]

Commonwealth War Graves are found beyond those dates Norman.

The cut off dates are

First World War: 1914 to 1921 (August 31st)

Second World War: 1939 to 1947 (Dec 31st)

[Seadog]

Yes I am fully aware of that "fact" but tried to be less pedantic as this is a suggested notice only and we are after all dealing with the public here and I would not wish to confuse them any more that they already are by informing them that WW1 ended in 1921 and WW2 in 1947!. .

Norman

[Dragon]

In the areas of France I go to, it is common practice to have a small notice on the wall / at the gate of civic cemeteries which contain official French military graves, like the CWGC is implementing.

In my opinion, the less information on a sign the better: just the necessary basics. Once you start specifying, you risk leaving people out. (For example, in the sign Norman is proposing, I immediately thought what about private memorials to deaths in the Falklands or Iraq. I'm aware that the CWGC deals with WW1 and WW2.) Visually it risks becoming cluttered.

Including private memorials becomes a dilution of purpose: mission creep. The information isn't easily verifiable, either (private memorials may contain mistakes, get broken, stolen, be subject to the vagaries of family feuds, removed, etc) while the CWGC can maintain accurate records of the graves in its care.

I'm not sure what interest private memorials have to passers-by, to be honest.

Gwyn

[Seadog]

Gwyn I am a little surprised to say the least at your post which appears to misunderstand my description of private memorials. Perhaps If I add an image of one such family grave it will be clearer. The fact is that there are thousands of such "memorials" in UK civil cemeteries which I am sure you would agree are no less important in recording our war dead than an official CWGC headstone. Given that there are such numbers of these in cemeteries I can only arrive at the opinion that the erecting of the signs by the CWGC is not only pointless but a waste of their funding which would nave been better directed at other functions some of which have already been mentioned in this topic I am still trying to get my head around the image of Joe Public "popping in" to a civil cemetery just because the CWGC have screwed a sign on the wall, gate post or whatever.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Have you contacted the CWGC to make your observations and complaints regarding this matter, Norman?

Chris this mail has just been sent to the CWGC:

With reference to the new signage on an initial 3,000 UK civil cemeteries, I note with interest the signs being erected and must express my concern that although no doubt not intended these signs appear to give the impression that only CWGC headstones are located in the cemetery, As we all know there are a huge number of war dead commemorated on private grave plots who do not have a formal CWGC headstone and the wording of the signage would appear to ignore this fact. Although it is now far too late to make any changes I would suggest that something similar to this wording would have been far more appropriate.

World War One 1914-1918

World War Two 1939-1945

This Cemetery contains

Commonwealth War Graves

And

Private Memorials

To the dead of

The two World Wars

Cwgc.org

Will you please inform me of the cost of the new signs either in total for the initial 3,000 or for an individual sign, the total cost please including the cost of affixing the signs.

[CGM]

I think there is some confusion here, between private memorials and war graves marked by private gravestones.

The description private memorial is often used to describe a family grave which has an inscription on the stone which remembers a casualty buried elsewhere, so not a war grave.

[Seadog]

I think you may be right in your assumption but as your post proves choosing a description is difficult as you use the term "war grave" which these private burial plots are most certainly not. Given all this I will continue to use the term memorial as it seems to generally fit the subject.

Regards

Norman

[Dragon]

I think there is some confusion here, between private memorials and war graves marked by private gravestones.

The description private memorial is often used to describe a family grave which has an inscription on the stone which remembers a casualty buried elsewhere, so not a war grave.

Yes. I assumed it could probably mean both, but I had in mind family graves with a commemorative addition. I really can't imagine anyone I know deciding to pop into a churchyard and scour the assorted graves peering at inscriptions of total strangers' graves to try and spot the one with an inscription. Descendants, yes. Otherwise it has shades of ancestor worship.

Norman, I agree with you that private memorials are important and in some ways I would suggest that they are important enough to deserve cataloguing all to themselves. The variety of grave architecture, language, imagery and symbolism placed by distraught families to remember their own war dead on a scale never seen before shouldn't, in my view, be shoved into the remit of an organisation set up to do something different.

Rather than clutter up CWGC signs, were private memorials to be indicated separately, I would be arguing for one simple small symbol which could be attached to a churchyard or cemetery wall or gate to signify the presence of such graves. I don't mean a cross but something like a Celtic rune or Anglo Saxon futhorc, or a minimal picture symbol.

Gwyn

[CGM]

...........you use the term "war grave" which these private burial plots are most certainly not. ........

Regards

Norman

Perhaps I should change my term from war grave to a private burial plot with war grave status.

I must make it clear that I am refering only to the graves of those who are commemorated on the CWGC Debt of Honour.

[Seadog]

Good points Gwyn (Post 60) well made, the other side of this situation which concerns me and is worthy of discussion is the time and effort being expended by I assume CWGC staff in attempting to contact the churches in whose burial grounds are located war graves in the sense that they have a formal CWGC headstone in-situ. Just consider the numbers, 12,300 individual sites in the UK where the war dead are commemorated in civil cemeteries and churchyards, both in private plots and by CWGC headstones. This must be an enormous task and to what end, are the general public actually going to walk into the civil cemeteries and wander about looking for war graves (CWGC type)

I really think not. What concerns me more than the mechanics of the signage project is the management procedures that actually finally approved the concept plus expenditure and gave the go-ahead for work to commence. Did anyone in the decision chain actually question both the anticipated benefits of such a project and the cost implications both in-house and externally plus the fact that there would be thousands of the war dead in private grave plots who would be seemingly ignored by the signage.

Members will no doubt recall the last but one upgrade to the CWGC search engine which resulted in all individual links as used by the internet community on roll of honour web sites etc being destroyed at a stroke because in the words of the CWGC “they did not realize the database was being used for such purposes” following which the update was reversed. There sadly appears to be parallels with that and the current signage situation.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Perhaps I should change my term from war grave to a private burial plot with war grave status.

I must make it clear that I am refering only to the graves of those who are commemorated on the CWGC Debt of Honour.

We could keep this going for days but I guess much to your relief this is my last post on the semantics aspect of this topic, All war dead are commemorated on the CWGC Debt of Honour Database irrespective of whether they have a CWGC headstone or are buried and commemorated in a family grave plot plus the same applies in the case of cremation where there is no actual physical individual memorial but the names will be recorded in an appropriate manner. See below for those war dead cremated and remembered here in Bristol at Arnos Vale Cemetery.

Link

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/38504/BRISTOL%20(ARNOS%20VALE)%20CEMETERY

Regards

Norman

[Dragon]

Norman, please could you tell me how you know that the procedures were defective and that there are parallels with the situation you describe in your final paragraph?

[Seadog]

Basically my point is that in both cases there appears to have been a lack of detailed knowledge of the subject matter in respect of the unconsidered implications of the final outcome shown by those decision-makers at the CWGC which results either in a reversal of project policy (Debt of Honour) and/or a costly amendment to procedures such as dumping the present signage and replacing it with something much more fitting for the intended purpose. In both instances this has or will result in additional costs (Debt of Honour) or possible costs (Signage).

Norman

[AlanCurragh]

Is there any indication the signage is to be replaced? At the moment it only appears to be you arguing that this should take place

[Dragon]

I'm sorry, Norman, but in asking how you know, I meant what evidence have you seen? I'm afraid I haven't got the will to plough through CWGC Annual Reports or anything like that and was hoping you could point me at something tangible.

I'm rather perplexed at your idea that the CWGC lacks detailed knowledge of its subject matter, or remit, whichever you mean. You're verging on saying that it's being run by a bunch of well-meaning but incompetent amateurs.

Gwyn

[Seadog]

Gwyn - Last line, your words not mine, I regret that I am unable to make my post any clearer for you..

Alan - Please note the word “possible”.

Any views on the possible costs of just erecting the signs?, my estimate of £50 per sign (fitted) is based on a quote from my local council for something similar so it could be less or more, just consider though that 3,000 (£150,000) signs are proposed initially so its is obvious that the fixing will be "bought in" with the appropriate costs involved with that.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Reply from the CWGC (Post 57) apparently the Commission includes those who died from the result of war and are buried in private family plots frequently with other family members as “War Graves” (See Post 56) news to me as I thought that this description applied only to those dead marked with a CWGC headstone.

I am not surprised that according to the reply they seemingly have no idea of the costs involved but you would have thought that such an organization would and indeed should know what financial commitments are likely to be required with such a project. I suppose this could be put down to the fact that their income is gifted to them and not actually earned as in any commercial organization with the financial disciplines and constraints that such businesses are subject to.

Norman

REPLY

Dear

Thank you for your enquiry of 27^th July 2012. We appreciate your feedback on the issue of our new signage.The Commission do not distinguish between a Commission Headstone and a Private Memorial they are both considered War Graves. Therefore we have not used the term ‘private memorial’ on our signs as have relied on the collective ‘War Graves’ to describe the commemoration of all members of the Commonwealth Forces who died during the two World Wars.

I am unable to quote a price for our signage as this is an on-going project and it is not certain that the Commission will be given permission by all 3,000 Cemetery Authorities to erect signs. As you may be aware this is the start of this project, each Cemetery has to be considered individually and so costs will vary as the project proceeds.

Cheryl Barker

Fleet and Information Services Administrator

[keithmroberts]

I'm afraid that that you have applied your own spin to the reply Norman.

"I am unable to quote a price for our signage as this is an on-going project and it is not certain that the Commission will be given permission by all 3,000 Cemetery Authorities to erect signs."

The Commission have no doubt replied to your question as worded and to interpret it as "they seemingly have no idea" is manifestly unfair and merely reflects your declared initial prejudice regarding the project.

I have no personal involvement in the Commission, but many years in the public service have taught me that there will be a plan, with allowances for some contingencies, and that although there will have been an initial projected allocation of resources, it will be subject to review as the project develops. The plan will exist as project documents, which will have been considered carefully and will be re-assessed as the project proceeds.

The Commission's role "in perpetuity" means that they think and plan long term, as demonstrated by the 30 year operation to clean. recut or replace all their headstones world wide, and their first experiments with alternate plantings to test out options for maintaining cemeteries through periods of climate change.

Keith

[Old Owl]

Quote

I am not surprised that according to the reply they seemingly have no idea of the costs involved but you would have thought that such an organization would and indeed should know what financial commitments are likely to be required with such a project. I suppose this could be put down to the fact that their income is gifted to them and not actually earned as in any commercial organization with the financial disciplines and constraints that such businesses are subject to.

Norman

Quote

I think that Cheryl Barker has made the CWGC position on this quite clear and I am amazed at your continued negative attitude towards them. Surely you didn't really think that they could or would give you the information you were asking for--when really it is non of your business anyway.

Personally I think that the CWGC do a fantastic job and should be applauded rather than lambasted in this way.

Robert

[CGM]

Hello again Norman,

This is definitely not a 'told you so' post but many thanks for putting the CWGC reply here.

See #61.

Any grave with a CWGC honoured casualty is a war grave and we can definitely move on now.

Reply from the CWGC (Post 57) apparently the Commission includes those who died from the result of war and are buried in private family plots frequently with other family members as “War Graves” (See Post 56) news to me as I thought that this description applied only to those dead marked with a CWGC headstone.

[Seadog]

No problem CGM I will always be up-front with any such replies received and this particular one is just what I expected. As for post 71 I do not regard any organization as sacrosanct and immune from comment or criticism. As for "none of my business" that is an odd comment considering that the vast majority of funding for the commission comes from the UK taxpayer i.e. me and the rest of us.

Norman

[Old Owl]

Negativity appears to be your thing Norman--just don't expect eveyone to agree with you.

[Dragon]

I agree with Keith and largely with subsequent comments on CWGC's reply.

I broadly sympathise with placing new signs and I think the simpler the better. I wouldn't want any more words. Unfortunately I think the reply is somewhat specious. I suspect that most people would assume that the new signs refer to graves with the usual CWGC headstones. I don't mean to be nit-picking, but capitalising War Graves seems to be distinct from war graves: it gives the impression of official graves, whereas the signage is more inclusive.

As so often happens when an organisation is immersed in a mission with its own special terms and very particular remit, I think that possibly there are some assumptions being made which reveal a difference between what the organisation thinks and what members of the public or non-specialists would probably think.

Having said all that, I don't know what I would have done!

Gwyn