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Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth

Great War heroes in the Irish Troubles 1916-23

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Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth

I'd like some information, preferrably with sources on some of the Great War veterans who participated in the successful counter-insurgency in Ireland in this period, there are plenty to go through but I'll start with 4.

1. Sir Ormonde Winter; I've read his autobiography and it's very good although a trifle self serving, I sometimes wonder if Ian Fleming wasn't inspired by him as well as Sidney Rielly. I'd like some more on his war service on the Western Front, his participation (or infiltration?) of the British Facist movement and his service in WW2?

2. Captain 'Tiny' King; South African born, raised from the ranks fighting in the Boer War, the Great War, Ireland and WW2. Can anyone give me details on what he did in between conflicts and how he died in WW2, all we know is that it was whilst serving in Gaza?

3. Major Jocyln 'Hoppy' Hardy; captured early in the Great War and escaped from 4 different POW camps in order to return to the front line. I've read his autobiography on his escapes with a glowing foreword from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (in fact all these men strike you as having stepped from the pages of a Conan Doyle/James Buchan novel). Hardy was a successful author and wrote several books both fiction and non-fiction, I'd like to know which one covers his experiences in Ireland, his combat in the Great War and if possible WW2 where he is supposed to have commanded an anti-aircraft battery (possibly as part of the Home Guard having lost his leg and taken a bullet in the stomach in the fighting of 1918). He also took a curious visit to the Japanese port of Yokohama on the eve of the outbreak of WW2, supposedly as a holiday but considering he had served as an intelligence officer, you wonder?

4. Major Arthur Percival; famous for having surrendered Singapore (although as the recent documentary proved not his fault by any means) but a very distinguished citizen soldier in WW1 who rose from Private to acting Brigadier and became the Army's expert on counter-insurgency after his meritorious service in Ireland. Did he publish an autobiography or did that just deal with the loss of Malaya?

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MarkTurner

There is a biography of Percival called 'Scapegoat' by Clifford Kinvig published by Brassey's in 1996.

Regards

Mark

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Simon_Fielding

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KGB

I can tell you one thing about Perceval...as a young officer in Cork during the War of Independence he set fire to a cottage. The owner of which was Michael Collins. "They knew how to hurt me" he said.

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IPT
Murrough

There is loads of material on this forum relating to the indivduals mentioned, do a seach and you will find the relevant information although some of it may have been culled at a later stage.

BTW your areas of interest are outside the scope of this forum according to the rules,but it may be posted in the skindles sub forum.Yuo should look at the Ireland sub forum for guidelines on what is and what is not allowed.

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Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth

There is a biography of Percival called 'Scapegoat' by Clifford Kinvig published by Brassey's in 1996.

Regards

Mark

Yep, already got it on order from the library

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Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth

Simon_Fielding'

Some useful links here:

http://en.wikipedia....celyn_Lee_Hardy

Thanks for the links although it seems to have been copied direct from the Cairo Gang ....................... I must correct it, not least because a lot of it has nothing to do with Hardy

'KGB'

I can tell you one thing about Perceval...as a young officer in Cork during the War of Independence he set fire to a cottage. The owner of which was Michael Collins. "They knew how to hurt me" he said.

Rayessex'

Hi Lt Col,

Not what your looking for I know but a story I found very strange and interesting involved my Great Great Uncles 4 of which died in France and Flanders, at the same time their Cousin was fighting the British in Dublin as the C.O 1st Battalion, Ned Daly who was shot for his part in the Easter Rising. His Cousins were John, Danial, Hugh and Patrick Daly.

Ray

Demonstrates the senseless tragedy of any civil war, brother against brother

'IPT'

Have you read Corisande's work on this subject?

Winter - http://www.cairogang...ter/winter.html

King - http://www.cairogang.../king/king.html

Hardy - http://www.cairogang...ardy/hardy.html

Percival - http://www.cairogang...l/percival.html

Yes I have and it's excellent, my questions are largely based on what's left out

'murrough'

There is loads of material on this forum relating to the indivduals mentioned, do a seach and you will find the relevant information although some of it may have been culled at a later stage.

BTW your areas of interest are outside the scope of this forum according to the rules,but it may be posted in the skindles sub forum.Yuo should look at the Ireland sub forum for guidelines on what is and what is not allowed.

I didn't realise there was a specific Ireland forum, maybe I can transfer this thread there?

Edited by Keith Roberts
Inappropriate comment + quote tags removed for simplicity

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keithmroberts

You can't, but I can.

Murrough's point earlier is well made. The focus of the forum is on the Great War, and will remain so. Irish issues can be discussed within the framework at the top of this section, in addition to the forum rules. It is easy to stray, so will posters please be careful.

Keith Roberts

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corisande
Yes I have and it's excellent, my questions are largely based on what's left out

My feeling on what I have left out, is that it is not readily researchable online or in books. You will need to find the families, and that is difficult in these instances. I always felt that I should have been able to get more on King, but never managed !

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KGB

Biting my tongue as I type this. My paternal Grandfather spent 4 years fighting for the British then was demobbed and fought against them for 6 or 7 months until his malaria and first wife got the better of him. Ireland 1919-21 falls outside the remit of this forum but there are pro and anti sides for having a cut off point of ,lets say 11 Nov 1918. Crozier was a British officer whose war record would be germaine to this forum but his time in Ireland not so. If G Smyth is a Lt-Gen he will be very easy to look up. Regards, KGB (RC but ex-fiancee Free Pee).

Edited by Keith Roberts
Inappropriate comment

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Murrough

I agree KGB but the scope of this forum is well defined as I found out last year when some of my content (and also others) was moderated when we strayed outside the remit ( but it was done in a very professional way without offending anyone).We now do not need a new poster trying to be provocative and elicit a response from those who do not share his biased views, this forum has always been inclusive and tolerant of all traditions and nationalities who have an interest in the Great War,I would hate to see it evolve into a soapbox or platform for extremists of any side who have an axe to grind.

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KGB

I shall read the T&Cs to ensure I do not foul up. I was surprised to see Germans here too (!) I left one forum when it was taken over by the far right. You can use my "Troll" cartoon anytime;)

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west coast

Thanks for the links although it seems to have been copied direct from the Cairo Gang but with some additional bias thrown in. I must correct it, not least because a lot of it has nothing to do with Hardy

Good for Percival! ^_^

Demonstrates the senseless tragedy of any civil war, brother against brother

Yes I have and it's excellent, my questions are largely based on what's left out

I didn't realise there was a specific Ireland forum, maybe I can transfer this thread there?

your comment ...good for percival,

this was collins ancestoral home, his family ,some elderly, this was their home. he had moved away to dublin and london some years before, this is the hurt he stated. this piece of 'action' didn`t help the situation then or later.

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KGB

Perhaps outside the remit here but I did a bit of looking into Great War Veterans who fought against the British 1919-21.

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keithmroberts

I have removed one post, and edited others. Can we please show restraint, and respect for other forum members. if there is further inappropriate comment, please use the report button rather than joining in.

Thank you

Keith Roberts

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KGB

Hi is there a list of T&Cs anywhere? I looked last night but to no avail.

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keithmroberts

There is a link at the bottom right of each page to the forum rules. We prefer to operate with a light touch so far as possible. There is also a review of the rules under way, but it will be some time before it is complete. When it is, there will be an announcement, but I would not expect any massive changes in spirit.

Keith

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KGB

Re:legal I wondered if what I had been told about Blue Circle cement 1918 was true.

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west coast

john moyney v.c l/sgt irish guards.

was awarded v.c for his leadership under fire for 96 hours 15 sept 1917, then guided his platoon across a river which he and another [havn`t got the name right now] were last to cross under a hail of fire, none of his men were lost . he is pictured in the uniform of c.i.e [the irish transport company] , he has said that after the war[ww1] when he returned to ireland, the only reason he possibly wasn`t shot [as were some] for his british army service, was his award of the v.c ??.

post-28990-0-17273900-1341125362_thumb.j

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corisande

 

Private Woodcock from Wigan is the other man who got the VC for that action

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Stanley_C_Jenkins

I am not quite sure what the original question was actually asking but, as a general rule, many members of the RIC Auxiliary Division had been decorated for acts of bravery during the Great War, which is presumably why they were recruited to the RICAD in the first place. I am sure that there were also many war heroes during the Irish Civil War - including some of those who joined the anti-Treaty side.

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KGB

I did a bit of research for my first degree dissertation on the Auxies. There were a high proportion of ex convicts. As was said there was also a number of unemployed veterans too.

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corisande
There were a high proportion of ex convicts

I would be extremely grateful if you could substantiate that statement. I have been, as readers of this forum may know, researching many of these men and would be grateful if you could give me a list of say 10 of the Auxiliaries who had been convicts when they signed up for the ADRIC.

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Peter Mc

I did a bit of research for my first degree dissertation on the Auxies. There were a high proportion of ex convicts.

That must be an interesting dissertation, perhaps you will share it. How did you disprove David Leeson's findings that only 0.6% of all English recruits - which includes both Black & Tans and Auxies - had a criminal record?

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