Tell England - Movie 1931

[Regulus 1]

Hi,

Does anyone on the forum know if this movie ever made it to DVD publishing ?

A good friend of mine has been looking for this one for ages !

Thanks and best from Johan

[RobL]

Oddly enough, I watched the film today! This is what I posted up on the Gallipoli 1915 facebook page;

"

I watched 'Tell England' (1931) at my local British Film Institute Mediatheque today before my trip to Gallipoli - although most of it is set in an Officer's dug out, it features superb scenes showing the landings - firstly of the ANZAC's at Gaba Tepe, showing the wooden boats being towed in by Steam Pinnaces then the troops landing and meeting some Turkish opposition.

It then has a very impressi

ve scene - the landing on V Beach, starting with a naval bombardment, then with the SS River Clyde with two lighters behind, in it's correct part-camouflage painted sides, with again steam pinnaces towing wooden rowing boats alongside, the River Clyde racing towards the shore and running aground and the troops in the wooden boats coming ashore under fire - it depicts the events of the V Beach landings accurately as far as i'm aware, including the difficulty with arranging the two lighters in front of the River Clyde and the number of casualties. The only fault in the whole film seems to be a Turkish machine gun at each landing beach but aside from that it's spot on - from the landing boats to the soldier's individual equipment. Well worth a trip to your free local mediatheque to see -

http://www.bfi.org.uk/whatson/bfi_around_the_uk/mediatheques"

Unfortunately i'm not aware of it being available on DVD which is a real shame, it has amongst the best WW1 action sequences i've ever seen and the depiction of the landing at V Beach really is absolutely stunning. The battle scene later in the film is very good too and seems to be very accurate - especially the men changing their Wolseley 'Pith' helmets for their gor blimey caps again. Probably the only film showing a British cricket ball bomb being used too

[Regulus 1]

Rob, thank you very much for your reply, unfortunately, this friend of mine lives in Holland, so little chance he'll get it in his hands or be able to watch it.

Well it's a good reason for him to go to the UK before going to Gallipoli

[RobL]

This is a MUST watch - it's a clip from a documentary but the footage is from the film 'Tell England' (1931) which I keep bashing on about. The bit about Turkish machine guns is rubbish but apart from that a VERY accurate depiction of the landing at V Beach

[PhilH]

This the one?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tell-England-A-Study-Generation/dp/1605973548/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341585134&sr=1-1

Sorry - just realised it's a book....

[RobL]

The film is based on the book - fingers crossed it'll be released during the centenary...

[michaeldr]

Rod

From post No.2 - The only fault in the whole film seems to be a Turkish machine gun at each landing beach

From post No.4 - The bit about Turkish machine guns is rubbish

There already is a very long thread on the GWF which discusses the Turkish machine guns at the landings and it is worth having a look at:

http://1914-1918.inv...ic=40505&st=525

As regards Helles and the landings at V Beach, also have a look at W095/4310 image ref 378.

In that file, pages 105>, you will find the account of the landing given by Capt. G W Geddes. CC 'X' Company, 1^st RMF.

This is part of Geddes' page 5

Note his underlined statement that

“They had Machine Guns”

and the hand written foot note

“CSM J O'Shea DCM, now serving in the 15th Foot, picked up Turkish Machine Gun Ball Boxes.”

Geddes also supplied a sketch of the beach indication the placement of various weapons/defences including Maxims.

Even Erickson, who writes history from the Ottoman view point and who has access to their surviving documentation, admits that the Turks had “Automatic Weapons”. He could hardy do otherwise, since captured Nordenfeldts found their way to London – eg; see post No.550 (page 23) on the other thread

Personally, I feel that the kindest slant one can put on this is that 'it is open to interpretation'

Evidence now resting in the UK and various first hand accounts however, suggest a much firmer conclusion

… … … … … … … … … … …

Regarding Tell England:

there is an article by Philip Dutton in The Gallipolian, No.97, Winter 2001-2002, pages 20-28 where the author, the book and the film are discussed.;

again, it's worth a look.

Regards

Michael

[RobL]

I'm convinced there weren't machine guns there - just very good rifle fire discipline used by the Turks, and the Nordenfelts as described which are automatic weapons and could be mistaken for machine guns. No Turkish maxims were captured (boxes could mean anything, and perhaps could be from the Nordenfelts?) and would have been proudly displayed like captured MG's were on the Western Front, and also the Nordenfelt now on display in the Tower of London. First hand accounts are frequently proved wrong, the rapid, accurate rifle fire of dozens of Turks could easily be confused for machine gun fire in the heat of battle, especially with ten or so Maxims on the River Clyde blazing away at the same time

[keithjk]

I watched this film, on a VHS cassette, in a small viewing room at the IWM. Well worth the trip. They are happy to book you in if you contact them, and there is no charge.

Keith

[michaeldr]

from my previous post:

Even Erickson, who writes history from the Ottoman view point and who has access to their surviving documentation, admits that the Turks had “Automatic Weapons”. He could hardy do otherwise, since captured Nordenfeldts found their way to London – eg; see post No.550 (page 23) on the other thread

My apologies to Col. Erickson; I did him a disservice by concentrating on the maps (which are borrowed from the Turkish official history) when I should have paid more attention to his text.

For the record, his book is 'Gallipoli – The Ottoman Campaign', pub. 2010, by Pen & Sword Military, ISBN 978 1 84415 967 3

and in his Introduction (p. xiii) he says it “...is based largely on original source documents from the Ottoman Fifth Army residing today in the Turkish General Staff's archives in Ankara...”

on page 45, Erickson notes that “Over the next several days [the first week of April 1915] the Ottoman high command sent several machine-gun companies, …...........to reinforce the Fifth Army”

and with respect to Helles, see his page 70, beginning at the seventh line down, where he indicates that in fact, not only were there Turkish machine-guns, but they were actually the first to come into action on the morning of 25^th April 1915

“About the same time [6.00 am] the 12 Coy's platoons observed over forty boats in lines heading for Teke Koyu (W Beach). At the 400m range line, Turkish heavy machine-guns began to engage the lead boats, but the riflemen, withheld their fire until the British were within 40m of the shore. The British landing was centred on the beach and, therefore, directly into the centre of a prearranged Turkish 'beaten zone.' The forward Turkish platoon reported at 7.05 am that an actual landing (as opposed to a demonstration or feint) was underway. At nearby Sedd el Bahr (V Beach) at 6.00 am, the men of of the 10 Coy observed, with great puzzlement, in the middle of masses of boats, a steamship (the converted collier River Clyde) heading inshore. At the 400m mark, the Turks began to engage the enemy with machine-guns and light artillery. At 6.30 am, five of twenty enemy boats became separated from the main body and the Turks engaged them with very heavy rifle fire. The steamship continued on until it grounded out in the surf and it was apparent to the Turks that it contained hundreds of enemy soldiers as well as numerous machine-guns. The ship immediately became a magnet for heavy Turkish fire as the company commander directed rifles and machine-guns against it.”

[PMHart]

So there we are - this thorny question is finally resolved - all arguments over for ever and ever! The Turks had heaps and heaps of machine guns scattered here, there and everywhere! Spare machine gun companies multiplying like bunny rabbits! V and W Beaches were both triumphs of British pluck faced by unbelievable odds. Hoorah!

Phew thank goodness that's all over! I must admit I have always love the academic rigour of such beautifully vague referenced sources!

So all in all - I say again - hoorah!!

Liar Pete

PS Rob, you should be utterly ashamed of yourself for questionning the great and good! An American Colonel is the only possible representative and mouthpiece for all Turks and Turkish sources past, present and in the future. I am sure his Pen & Sword book completely undermines the lifetimes' work by the likes of Kenan Çelik, Sahin Akdogan and Haluk Oral. What do such chaps know ? After all - much as Ian Hamilton and Aylmer Hunter Weston thought, "They're only Turks - what do they know about war!!!"

[RobL]

Think it would be fairly safe to say that if Geddes' map and number of machine gun positions were even half correct, there would be no eye witness accounts of the landing at V Beach because there'd be no survivors!

[keithmroberts]

Pete

I was counting on you to take me to the sites of the machine guns in September. You sadden me greatly.

Keith

[RobL]

I'm sure he'll oblige - he's also good at showing where the female snipers were captured, and the UFO landing site which abducted the Sandringhams

[PMHart]

Anything for you Keith! The female sniper position still has a collection of Turkish naughty nighties! There are clear scorch marks on the grass where the Norfolks vanished into the skies.....

Geddes was never in a position to draw that map from what he saw! He was inside the River Clyde during the approach, then landed in a brief mad flurry of action, after that he crouched behind a bank till he was wounded trying to move to the right. Geddes then lay on the beach behind the bank till night when he was evacauted. A brave man and a good officer, but his map is just tosh! Five hundrd men and six machine guns. More like 150 men and two Nordenfelds (two were destroyed in the bombardment)

Liar Pete

[michaeldr]

we are being asked to doubt

eye witness accounts, from both the army and navy

physical evidence which was retrieved from the battlefield

and some of the records of the force deploying the Mgs and the Automatic Weapons

OK; this is what Bill said on the other thread (post No.6, 30OCT2005)

I have had this discussion with Kenan Celik and with another local expert, Sahin Akdogan, a number of times. Indeed Sahin and I were talking over this again only a week ago. He pulled out the Turkish official history and the order of battle for the units of the Ottoman 9th division that was defending the Peninsula. Of note is the fact that the battalion defending the beaches at the toe of the Peninsula was not equipped with a machine gun detachment, though the other two battalions of the 26th regiment were

If we suppose for a moment that the quoted OoB is correct and upto date as of 25 April 1915 (it does after all confirm that at least two battalions had Mgs)

then does it also mean that the the commander was playing a sort of Russian roulette when he rotated his forces through his prepared defensive positions above the beaches?

Would it be likely that he would have Mgs there on his front line for only some of the time, and not for the rest?

[My own experience suggests that in a situation such as this, the weapon would be left in place, rather than have the prepared defences go naked for even a short time; of course, different army & different time, but there you are.]

I think that the commander was better at his job than that, and that he would not have risked being without his Mgs facing the landing beaches even for a moment.

[bluedog]

Michael

Your mail box seems to be full

Peter

[michaeldr]

Thanks Peter - Action taken

Michael

[RobL]

What physical evidence?

[PMHart]

I am awaiting the publication by Michael of the Turkish evidence as opposed to the contested quotes - predigested and unreferenced - copied from an American Colonel. I am glad Michael believes all the witness accounts of female Turkish snipers, Norfolk bothering flying saucers and is unaware of the culture of gross exagerration in personal experience accounts from 1914-1915.

Michael mistunderstands the organisation of the Turkish army machine guns: they were held as one company of four Maxims, per regiment of three battalions - equivalent to our brigade. Machine guns were in such short supply that not every regiment had a company - including the 26th Regiment! Such valuable assets would anyway never be thrust forward in vulnerable forward 'tripwire' positions they were moved forward - as at Anzac - when they had determined where the real threat lay... We are all aware of the Nordenfeldts which are semi automatic and nasty weapons more than capable of causing dreadful damage and chewing up the boats.

Why can't we all just enjjoy the film and walk in reverence - quietly!

Liar Pete

[michaeldr]

for some background info on the historian Edward J Erickson

see https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ZZczTfycSaIJ:https://www.mcu.usmc.mil/faculty%2520CVs/E_Erickson_CV.pdf+Gallipoli+%26+Mellan%C3%B6stern+1914+-+1918&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjGwPr2PSx6pxJt3VkK5qeYz_PD8RxNy2q-Y5QMwTr2g2oP2_YBcEDVnSFzXZ2GyCeZZyN11Cb4_m2_v9iN1y_wu6hQontSbQXBIlvYSUCSSfTcDf2wro5sk-OWckP5Zd7O5BWW&sig=AHIEtbRb3YKIuho-V65vluA1wTry2tceXg

[Guest]

I haven't watched this, and it's probably more about Anzac than Helles, but it's got to be worth a watch. Only watched clips, but great scenery.

From http://www.abc.net.a...2006T203000.htm

" Examination of the original maps used by British intelligence to plan the landings, clearly show gross inaccuracies. The hills, contours and ridges of the area were missing from the maps, providing a false sense of the area. Also lacking was the information about the superiority of the Turkish defence. They were fully aware of the planned invasion and were waiting armed with the latest machine guns, capable of firing 600 bullets a minute. "

Episode

1

2 [media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waGu89Hynaw

By the way, I have no idea if there were machine guns or Nordenfeldts, but am enjoying heavyweight bout between Mike & Pete. May the 'truth out' some day.

Mike

[Guest]

Dang! Can't get other links to post. Other three episodes here

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=vid&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=671&q=Battlefield+Detectives+The+Gallipoli+Disaster&gbv=2&oq=Battlefield+Detectives+The+Gallipoli+Disaster&gs_l=video-hp.3..0.10223.10223.0.12464.1.1.0.0.0.0.120.120.0j1.1.0...0.0.iHRWfJOUsDY

Mike

[PMHart]

Hi Michael,

I have no problem with Ed Erickson as a historian - and he seems a very nice chap to boot. My problem is people who cling to anything to excuse the military performance of the 29th Division on 25 April at Helles - not note their mutually agreed and admired incredible personal courage - and thereby demean the amazing Turkish achievement that day. WHen I asked Ed directly on Facebook all he said was, "The 9th Division did have eight 25mm Nordenfeldts, several of which seem to have been sited at Cape Helles." In that we are in total agreement.

WHen YOU Michael provide the original sources from Turkish archives of Maxim machine guns (not Nordenfelts) at V Beach - missed by Kenan, Sahin and Haluk in all their years of hard study as opposed to Ed's relatively quick trawl through - then I will be convinced. I still have no idea how you can engage in an argument about Turkish machine guns when you have no idea what-so-ever of their organsiation or theoretical deployment - it is staggering!

Lovely Mike: on the matter of the films you post - my old writing partner Nigel Steel at least has been convinced - as I was - over the last ten years by the evidence from Turkish sources, coupled with the military realities as explained by the likes of Brigadier Chris Roberts and the demonstrable exagerrations in many of the British first hand accounts. Haven't spoken to Peter Doyle recently so not sure. I don't even think there were Nordenfelts at W Beach - why would Major Richard WIllis VC bother to recount the shooting of a sniper if he was under machine gun fire? Where are the captured machine guns - they certainly could not have been dragged away given the quick end to the Turkish resistance at W Beach. The LFs would have all been wiped out lying in a line in front of the wire. It was bad enough - terrible in fact - with just small arms fire.

Finally neither Michael nor I are heavyweights: though tragically I have put on a few pounds over the last week or two! I'm sure he is waspishly thin....

Liar Pete

[Guest]

Right enough. No chance of you being a heavy-weight, after traipsing up and down Sari Bair

Mike