National Archives British Trenchmap Atlas Vs Linesman maps

[seaforths]

Hi Folks,

I have been researching 6th Seaforths for some time and am looking to extend my research into the trench maps. I have looked at the map lists info on National Archives map cd and on the Linesman packages. Ultimately, I will have to do my homework and go through all of the the Map refs of the 6th Seaforth Diaries and see which of these packages gives me the best coverage. However, I would also like to know what the print options are for both packages. I believe the National Archive ones can be printed to PDF - is that the only print option they offer in the package?

Ideally what I would like to be able to do is to get selected maps relevant to my research printed off to a size similar to what it would have been originally, without loss of clarity, so that I can annotate and make notes on them. My local printing establishment only print colour enlargements from A4 to A3. If I want anything larger printed in colour, I need to take the image in on a memory stick. Can I access the image files and put it onto a memory stick from either of these packages?

I have checked through the various threads on both these packages within 'Maps' topics but can't find anything about the repro side of things.

Appreciate any help on this

Thanks - Marjorie

[Roger H]

Marjorie

First let me say I am no expert. However, I have the National Archives DVD and I save all my copies of (small sections) my trench maps as JPEG files. I have no problem saving them to a memory stick.

Roger

[seaforths]

Hello Roger,

Thanks for your response on my post. So, am I right in thinking that if I were to open a particular map say for example 28NW2 Ed.5a I could save that map in its entirety as a jpg to a memory stick? Or, would I only be able to save 28NW2 Ed 5a in smaller sections? I would prefer to be able to get the whole map done at the printers. However, I could get it printed in sections and join it up with tape if that is the best can be done.

Thanks again - Marjorie

[Roger H]

Marjorie

For ilustrative purposes, here is all of 28NW2 which I have extracted from the DVD. Of course, the image is only a small size to meet the forum "rules". If you saved the image onto a stick from your DVD you would be able to print it off but of course the detail would be small. If you PM me your e-mail address I will send you a higher resoulution image and you will be able to play around with it.

Roger

[Roger H]

And here is a detail from the same map - again for illustrative purposes.

Roger

[Roger H]

And something a bit closer:

I should have added that I know very little about linesman - you need someone else to be able to give you advice on that.

Roger

[CROONAERT]

I will have to do my homework and ... ...see which of these packages gives me the best coverage. ...

Ideally what I would like to be able to do is to get selected maps relevant to my research printed off to a size similar to what it would have been originally, without loss of clarity, so that I can annotate and make notes on them. My local printing establishment only print colour enlargements from A4 to A3. If I want anything larger printed in colour, I need to take the image in on a memory stick. Can I access the image files and put it onto a memory stick from either of these packages?

As far as I know, the coverage on both is similar (but, for me anyway, Linesman's 'bells and whistles' makes it the more useful of the two). As for printing off the complete map, I'm not sure how the copyright works in this case, but it was certainly possible to store an entire map in high (full?) resolution on a memory stick from the 'old' IWM trench-map CD in order to print-off and , in a round-about way, its also possible to do the same from Linesman too.

You mention that its possible to print off a whole map from the 'new' IWM trenchmap DVD in PDF format and store this on a memory stick? (Haven't got it, so I don't know myself). If this is the case, then it's definately possible to physically print off from this (and, if your local print shop can't print from PDF (unlikely scenario), then all you have to do is convert the PDF to JPEG format using some image editing software on your computer and the problem should be solved).

Hope that helps,

Dave

[seaforths]

As far as I know, the coverage on both is similar (but, for me anyway, Linesman's 'bells and whistles' makes it the more useful of the two). As for printing off the complete map, I'm not sure how the copyright works in this case, but it was certainly possible to store an entire map in high (full?) resolution on a memory stick from the 'old' IWM trench-map CD in order to print-off and , in a round-about way, its also possible to do the same from Linesman too.

You mention that its possible to print off a whole map from the 'new' IWM trenchmap DVD in PDF format and store this on a memory stick? (Haven't got it, so I don't know myself). If this is the case, then it's definately possible to physically print off from this (and, if your local print shop can't print from PDF (unlikely scenario), then all you have to do is convert the PDF to JPEG format using some image editing software on your computer and the problem should be solved).

Hope that helps,

Dave

Hi Dave,

I was quoting them from their own speel regarding printing. They said it was possible to print off the maps and they used PDF format. If the images are stored as PDFs and locked down and secure - it might be difficult to convert etc. If on the other hand the images are on the cd as jpgs and accessible, that might be better. I can get colour prints up to A1 in size but not sure a full size trench map is that big? Possibly they are about A2 in size?

Marjorie

[seaforths]

And something a bit closer:

I should have added that I know very little about linesman - you need someone else to be able to give you advice on that.

Roger

Hello Roger,

thanks for the images - the look quite sharp given the file size restrictions on the Forum and I am assuming that the full size map was stored on the CD as a jpg. if that is the case then printing up to A2 colour from a memory stick would give a fairly clear image. I am leaning towards this cd purchase at the moment if it gives me the map coverage. I need to go through the diaries and note down the map refs and then look at this cd.

Was there much difference between the edition numbers on the maps? Most of the time they give the edition number in the diary but sometimes they don't.

Marjorie

[Roger H]

Marjorie

First, a disclaimer - I am no expert!

With regard to the editions, using 28NW2 as an example, there are 14 editions of this map with the dates ranging from 21/7/1915 to 30/3/1918. I am not sure in what format the maps are stored but the process I use is as follows:

1. Select the area of the map I want to save by using the appropriate drag tool.

2. Click "save as". This result in the default option is "ER Mapper Raster Dataset (*.ers). The other options are: ESR BIL and GEOSPOT (*hdr), Windows BMP (*bmp), GEO TIFF (*tiff) and JPEG (*jpg)

3. For some reason I cannot save the selection using the JPEG option - I have to save the copy as a *bmp file and then when I have done that, I resave it as a jpeg image. Don't know why that is, but there you go!

Note that I am currently running the Windows XP version.

Roger

[seaforths]

Thanks Roger - I will let you know how I get on using the map you sent as a guinea pig! I will also try printing myself to A3 paper but I think that will be too small to read detail and writing and I won't have much room to scribble. I did have another map (not a trench map) printed A2 size onto A1 paper and it gave me tons of room around the edges for notes. So I might even go for that. Will keep you posted.

Marjorie

[seaforths]

Hello Roger,

I managed to get my printer friend to do the maps after work. She did one at A1 size and one at A2 printed onto A1. The clarity and quality of both is outstanding but having the wide margin of white paper on the latter makes it great for making notes around the edge. However, a caveat, I got them as a favour at fraction of the price which she said would be over a tenner a sheet and the price might vary at different printing establishments.

I also don't know if they were using differing series of maps or whether some diarists were more fastidious about recording refs because some seem quite precise, as the one I gave you but others are like this:

POELCAPPELLE AREA U29d.65.65

And the one for the area my granddad was captured in October 1917 is this:

In the Trenches (Ref Map:- CHERISY /10,000)

So some searching for some maps will probably be largely guess work on my part.

But thank you all again for your help.

Marjorie

[Roger H]

Marjorie

Glad all went well and the quality was ok. The precise map references such as the one you mention are no problem at all. This article on the WFA site is great at helping to understand map reading: http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-mapping/mapping-the-front-great-war-maps-dvd/great-war-map-lists/855-read-a-trenchmap.html I zoom in on precise map reference points all the time on my DVD, In respect of costs, you can always print them off at home on A4!!

Let me know if you require anything further.

Roger

[seaforths]

Hello Roger,

As I said before the clarity and detail was superb on the big prints and thanks for the link and your kind offer. I won't be mapping for a little while as am off to London for a few days to visit The British Library Colindale Newspaper archive in a few days to check out the Weekly Casualty Lists (War Office & Air Ministry) to try and get info on POWs and to Kew Archives. But with my birthday coming up in about 8 weeks, I suddenly have an idea for my pressie! No prizes for guessing. And by which time, I should be ready for some serious mapping.

Thanks again

Marjorie

[seaforths]

Hello Roger and Dave,

if either of you are still onto this topic, I am after a bit of extra information regarding the National Archive Trench Map CDRom and the Linesman Maps.

I have had a chance to go through my diaries and check some of the maps in the Brigade boxes at Kew some of the references are for maps 1: 20,000 and 1: 40,000

From what I can understand and please correct me if I am wrong, the National Archive Maps CDRom has 1: 10,000 maps only - but the Linesman has 1: 10,000, 1: 20,000 and

1: 40,000 - but can't get an entire map print from Linesman or save it as a JPG?

I found a few map overlays while at Kew created on tracing paper for putting over specific maps. I thought I could with a bit of creativity - recreate the transparency of these overlays and layer over the original map if I can save it from the CD as a JPG. Also, I am considering replacing my desktop PC next year and considering an Apple Mac - are there any compatability issues with these CDs and Macs?

Look forward to hearing from you again

Cheers Marjorie

[Roger H]

Marjorie

I think the DVD is only 1:10000 as you say. But wouldn't you be able to zoom in and save the file as a jpeg to match your drawings? But I am no expert. Why don't you contact Naval and Military press for advice? They would also be able to tell you about compatability issues.

Sorry I'm not being very helpful but I am not really a computer wizz.

Roger

[seaforths]

Thanks for your words of wisdom and sorry for the belated response. I have been mulling some of this over. Of course - yes - it would be better to contact them over the DVD as presumably they have technical support. I think I am guilty of the adage 'too close to the woods to see the trees'. I was at Kew during the bank holiday week and made enquiries at their shop. They didn't know about this DVD or have this DVD but they did have another one which they tried to sell me of the maps of the captured German trenches. So, I will try and contact the distributors of the DVD.

I don't know if I am right in this, it is pure conjecture/assumption on my part but if a map ref is given and they name the map issue and scale then that map is more likely to contain the same locations and trench locations that they are referring to in the diaries. However, am I being pedantic? I could be searching for a 'Holy Grail' solution in thinking that either one of these will cover my needs exactly when in fact neither of them will; in which case I might be better purchasing a generic package that is best fit as you described in terms of coverage and technically I can adjust to what I would like to do.

The Apple Mac thing appeals but takes me out of my comfort zone. I took some copies of the map overlays they produced on tracing paper and once I have trawled through all my image captures, should probably have the maps they were intended to be overlayed on. I have software capable of editing in terms of layerig, size and transparency and this could be an interesting project and in my comfort zone of a Windows based PC I would be fine - so my concerns over Apple extend not only to software I would like to purchase but software and other things I already have and the only ones that can address my concerns I suppose are Apple type people. I need to make a list of questions and take myself off to their nearest store (about 40 miles away).

So thanks again Roger

Marjorie

[Roger H]

I don't know if I am right in this, it is pure conjecture/assumption on my part but if a map ref is given and they name the map issue and scale then that map is more likely to contain the same locations and trench locations that they are referring to in the diaries

Marjorie

Generally that is right. Sometimes however, a map for a particular date may not show the British trenches for security reasons or the trenches may be shown to a depth of "x" hundred feet from the front line.

Roger

[Scalyback]

Apple V mac is pretty much a non starter these days. Mac's even run mircosoft office!

regards to making the trench images, have you thought of "stitching" them in photoshop type software? For a very basic example. if you had "X" grid square saved, you can then add "Y" to it and then "Z" as needs be.

[seaforths]

I have managed to find a site that breaks down what the National Archive Trench Maps Atlas will run on and found it will not run on a Mac. However, I am aware that you can run the Windows OS on a Mac alongside their OS X. If we have to switch to a Mac - and this is relative only to my hubby, who has degenerative mobility problems - the magic track pad would help him greatly - it wouldn't be a problem for him. It's me that plays with all the wizardry stuff and I was hoping not to have to do run Windows on it really because then you have to go down the whole business of running the full monty regarding AV/Malware/Spyware etc. And, still be able to do my own stuff.

In terms of the maps a 1: 40,000 map would cover a larger area because it is at a smaller scale. Therefore you would either need 4 sections of a 1: 20,000 map stitched together to create a map covering the same area and if that was the case I would need to stitch 16 maps of 1: 10,000 together to produce a 1: 40,000? Is this what you mean?

[Smithmaps]

Two notes on this thread with regard to LinesMan.

The Memory-Map software has a fantastic print facility, and maps can be printed up to full size from it, if you have a big enough printer.

If you have the software on a laptop, you could even take it to the local print shop and plug it into their big printer.

In addition, the software has the capability to stitch maps together.

If you find yourself in the corner of a map, as often happens, you can choose the next map along of similar date, and merge the two. Then you can add the next one above, and if you want, merge the whole front line. Up to a maximum map file size of about 4GB. This facility, removes the need to keep referring back to different maps.

It also allows simple printing across map borders.

Regards

Guy

[seaforths]

Cheers Guy and thanks for your information you posted.

in the end, I contacted the Linesman guys direct and they said I there was no way I could take it to a printers and get maps printed off as there were copyright issues and some of the sources of their maps from private collections etc had to be copright protected - so I thought that was that really and have now committed and got the National Archive trench map atlas. I have found that these can be converted to jpg with ease and taken on a memory stick to the printers.

I think it largely depends on what you want to be able to do with the maps and with my granddad, his six cousins and 2 great uncles being at the front, I wanted to create an album/scrapbook that included some large maps that fold out of the book and with notes around the sides of the maps themselves. I have experimented with one map printed A2 size onto A1 paper and the quality is outstanding. So I am happy with that. I have also managed to get to Kew (another trip planned and going again in 2 weeks time). In doing this I have also been able to get some of the special maps that aren't on the cd and they really focus into where they were on the ground.

But your information is handy to know should I decide to venture down the Linesman route at a later date and thank you again

Marjorie

[towisuk]

Just as a pointer Marjorie......Guy is "LInesman", someone we have to be grateful to for a fantastic product that makes touring the battlefields and researching events and positions on maps far, far easier than before.

regards

Tom

[seaforths]

Thanks for that Tom, it may well have been Guy that responded to my email when I contacted them with my query and gave me the information regarding the copyright - it is quite a few weeks ago and I no longer have the email. As I said earlier, it is down to what the individual wants to do with the maps and I am sure that it is a superb piece of software for touring battlefields and the "bells & whistles" from an earlier posting look fantastic on the demos. My needs are quite simplistic at the moment. I am sure Guy can contact me himself and point out the errors of my ways and my short term memory loss too?!! I shall plead insanity if needs be - take care

Marjorie

[JimSmithson]

Marjorie

The arguments about copyright have bounced around the Forum for ages but in your case I don't think you should have any worries. Taking maps from Linesman or the N.A. to the printers is no different when the originals are held in Kew. Guy will be careful giving carte blanche statements about copyright as permission does have to be obtained should you wish to publish (including websites) and some of his maps are not N.A. originals. You seem to be creating something for family use only in which case you have no problems. This is the statement by Kew with regard to copying:

Most public records in The National Archives are in Crown Copyright. There are no restrictions on the use of copies for non-commercial research or private study.

Jim