Moonraker Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 I don't know Aldershot very well, but Bulford, Larkhill and Warminster have little to commend when it comes to military architecture. But the buildings at Tidworth mentioned in this thread do have some distinction and history.dating back to the Boer War. Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 The Tidworth barracks were built several years post Anglo-Boer War. 1904 -05 rings a bell. The main Navvy Camp was Tin Town at Brimstone Bottom, on the road between Tidworth and Ludgershall, near Apple Tree Farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 Out of interest, and slightly off topic, I found Hampshire Museums Service very helpful when I was trying to find out information on the cavalry barracks (Willems Barracks and Warburg Barracks - two great cavalry actions) at Aldershot; I don't know if Wiltshire has the same resource for Tidworth (I assume Tidworth is in Wiltshire ... just). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) There is a wonderful book titled "British Barracks 1600-1914: Their Architecture and Role in Society" By James Douet (English Heritage 1998) which has some nice detail on the development of the Tidworth barracks complex. They took quite a few years to build. The book includes some nice sharp photos and some detailed maps and plans. One dated 1908 shows a pan of the whole complex curving around Clarendon Hill. The barracks were understandably regular and the main blocks replicated 16 times so it might be difficult to identify the exact block from the photos. A diary might record their exact location within the complex. The third Military Works Act 1901 paved the way for the acquisition of the land and the necessary money (£6.3m of which £4.2m was earmarked for construction of barracks). The classic H shaped double barracks blocks at Tidworth (each designed to accommodate a half-battalion) were based on an prototype first developed at Goojerat Barracks in Colchester as well as at The Curragh starting in the 1890s. In terms of Military Architecture they were pioneering and marked a step change in design and layout and in particular sanitation and drainage. The only flaw in the design is that the architect (Maj E H Hemmings RE) intended for them to be aligned North-South so that sunlight could penetrate both sides. The Tidworth barracks follow a curved shallow valley. Edited 14 February , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 1 hour ago, Steven Broomfield said: (I assume Tidworth is in Wiltshire ... just). The county boundary (Hants/Wilts) used to run down Station Road in the middle of Tidworth and cross the Marlborough Road (A338) at what is still called Hampshire Cross. Tidworth therefore spilled into the two counties, and for a long time the southern part (Hants) spelled the name as "Tedworth", at least on OS maps, whilst the north (Wilts) was "Tidworth". There were two police stations - the Wiltshire one where it still is, opposite The Ram public house, and the Hampshire one, a modified dwelling, on the Bulford road facing The Oval sports ground. The county boundary was moved southwards in about 1992, for administrative convenience, bringing all of Aye-Tiddly-Idworth into God's Own County, along with places like Faberstown in Ludgershall. The correct full postal address for all of Tidworth still includes "Hants" though, because the post office which covers it is Andover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 23 minutes ago, QGE said: There is a wonderful book titled "British Barracks 1600-1914: Their Architecture and Role in Society" By James Douet (English Heritage 1998) which has some nice detail on the development of the Tidworth barracks complex. They took quite a few years to build. The book includes some nice sharp photos and some detailed maps and plans. One dated 1908 shows a pan of the whole complex curving around Clarendon Hill. The barracks were understandably regular and the main blocks replicated 16 times so it might be difficult to identify the exact block from the photos. A diary might record their exact location within the complex. As a matter of interest, the barracks are named in alphabetical order from west to east, with the names of Indian/Afghani garrison towns and cantonments. IIRC the first is Aliwal, running through to the last, viz. Mooltan. The fact that only half the alphabet was used suggests to me that further builds were contemplated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 Aliwal, today, is (I believe) home to the KRH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said: As a matter of interest, the barracks are named in alphabetical order from west to east, with the names of Indian/Afghani garrison towns and cantonments. IIRC the first is Aliwal, running through to the last, viz. Mooltan. The fact that only half the alphabet was used suggests to me that further builds were contemplated. I suspect it was simply using the battles in alpahbetical order. The Tidworth garrison has two A's. It laso has E, F and K and L missing in the alphabetical sequence. South Tidworth on my 1911 Census sheets had: Aliwal Assaye Bhurtpore Candahar Delhi Jellalabad Suggesting at least 6 of the 8 H shaped barracks had been build by then. The late Victorians had a penchant for naming streets after series of battles of frontiers of the Empire. London has small knots of late Victorian developments with military links,. In Battersea in what the estate agents now call 'Little India" there is small set of linked streets called Candahar Rd, Nepaul Rd, Afghan Rd, Khyber Rd, Cabul Rd - their spelling exposing their Victorian roots. incidentally there is now a mosque at about 100 yards from Afghan Rd. They are a stones' throw from the original Price's Candles factory (still going only a few years ago) shose staff volunteered en masse and formed the majority of a Company for the Battersea Battalion of the East Surrey Regt in the Great War if memory served. 15 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: Aliwal, today, is (I believe) home to the KRH. in 1911 the 18th Hussars were there. Edit. In act it is probably the most likely for the photo as the Artillery and Cavalry had similar requirements in Barracks design to cope with the horses: stables, watering troughs etc. the 19911 Census shows a number of "Cavalry and Artillery Barracks" dotted across the country. In 1911 the 18H appear to be the only cavalry in Tidworth although by 1914 the 9th Lancers were also there. Edited 14 February , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 7 minutes ago, QGE said: It laso has E, F and K and L missing in the alphabetical sequence. Lucknow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 I'm working from memory, but I think that Tidworth in 1914 was home to the 2nd cavalry brigade (4th DG, 9th Lancers, 18th Hussars) The Victorians were also, of course, rather fond of naming pubs after battles: The Alma in Cambridge I remember well. In fact the Victorians named pretty well everything after battles, as I remember every morning and evening on my daily commute! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 1 minute ago, Stoppage Drill said: Lucknow. possibly a later addition? The 1911 Census (my only guide) does not mention Lucknow or Multan but lists 6 others. The 1908 plan shows 8 barracks meaning at least two - Lucknow and Mooltan I assume - were planned but not then built.... or the Census is mis-labelled and does not come up in the trawl. James British regiments 1914-18 only shows four Infantry Battalions based in Tidworth (7th Infantry Brigade) in Aug 1914 which required four barracks. Ditto 1911 Census. The other two, Aliwal (Cavalry) and Delhi (RAMC and Married Quarters). I suspect the Census may still be hiding some secrets. No sign of the RFA. It is a shame that so much has been demolished. As a child when the 11H was there I recall racing around the barracks. I studied Architecture at university (although I never followed it as a career). I wanted to do my dissertation on military barracks architecture but my tutor didn't think it was interesting enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: I'm working from memory, but I think that Tidworth in 1914 was home to the 2nd cavalry brigade (4th DG, 9th Lancers, 18th Hussars) You are right the whole of the 2nd Cav Brigade was based in Tidworth. None of their diaries record which barracks though. If there were 8 Barracks and one Infantry Brigade and one Cavalry Brigade it suggests a good fit. Possibly RFA or RHA in the eighth block? Edited 14 February , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) The original plan called for two Inf brigades in the eight barracks we have named - one battalion per. There were also to be two Arty barracks. No cavalry. Plans changed: the arty barracks were abandoned, and the infantry component reduced to one brigade with a Bn each in Bhurtpore, Delhi, Jellalabad and Lucknow. Cavalry in t'others, viz. Aliwal Assaye, Candahar and Mooltan. There are Royal Cipher (ER VII) stones with build dates on the pediments of the Officers' Messes, all 1905, I think, except Aliwal which is 1904. (I am ready to take correction). Perhaps the reason that Lucknow and Mooltan are missing from your census sheets is that they were in a different registration area in Wiltshire whereas the others were in Hampshire ? Edited 14 February , 2017 by Stoppage Drill Main Source - "Plain Soldiering" by NDG James, Hobnob Press, Salisbury 1987. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 Four barracks for three cavalry regiments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: Four barracks for three cavalry regiments? Can't say. That seems to have been the barrack allocation after the first change of plan. However, by the time the complex was occupied, Delhi had been converted into a hospital. There would have been reallocation, and I imagine Mooltan went to the infantry - in later years I only ever knew it as an infantry barracks. As late as 1929 The Barrack Book was still showing Delhi as "Usual Occupation 1 Infantry Battalion misappropriated as temporary military hospital." (My italics) Edited 14 February , 2017 by Stoppage Drill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said: The original plan called for two Inf brigades in the eight barracks we have named - one battalion per. There were also to be two Arty barracks. No cavalry. Plans changed: the arty barracks were abandoned, and the infantry component reduced to one brigade with a Bn each in Bhurtpore, Delhi, Jellalabad and Lucknow. Cavalry in t'others, viz. Aliwal Assaye, Candahar and Mooltan. There are Royal Cipher (ER VII) stones with build dates on the pediments of the Officers' Messes, all 1905, I think, except Aliwal which is 1904. (I am ready to take correction). Perhaps the reason that Lucknow and Mooltan are missing from your census sheets is that they were in a different registration area in Wiltshire whereas the others were in Hampshire ? Interesting. Any idea which units were in Lucknow and Mooltan in 1911? STOP PRESS. You are right. Mooltan and Lucknow are both registered as North Tidworth, Wiltshire rather than South Tidworth, Hampshire 1st Bn Devonshire Regt in 1911 for both including Married quarters etc. 1st Devons formed part of 8th Inf Bde in 1914 The 1911 Census shows the infantry (all 7th Inf Bde) in: Assaye...............2nd Bn Lancashire Fusiliers Bhurtpore...........1st Bn Loyla North Lancashire Regt Candahar............2nd Bn Duke of Wellington's Regt (West Riding) Jellalabd..............2nd Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers I have (I think) exhausted the Census which has nothing in Wiltshire for regulars. I will check again. Hers is what I have built recently just for Hamsphire. Each entry (line) is a separate Census book which logs up to 300 names each. The files run sequentially and are very identifiable by their screaming scarlet cover pages. They are difficult to miss. That said the Census had very odd ways of indexing Registration Districts and Registration Sub Districts and some key locations in Aldershot cross counties. Gicven the proximity of the county line there might be a similar case. I will check again but I am certain there was only one Infantry Brigade there in 1911 as all the others are pinned to other locations and cross referenced with James 1914-18 Hampshire Alverstoke Gosport Fort Gomer 2nd Bn Lincolnshire Regt Hampshire Alverstoke Gosport New Barracks 1st Bn KRRC Hampshire Alverstoke Gosport Royal Marine Barracks RMLI Hampshire Alverstoke Gosport Royal Marine Barracks RMLI Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Aliwal Barracks 18th Hussars Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Aliwal Barracks 18th Hussars Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Aliwal Barracks Married Quarters Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Assaye Barracks 2nd Bn Lancashire Fusiliers Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Assaye Barracks 2nd Bn Lancashire Fusiliers Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Assaye Barracks 2nd Bn Lancashire Fusiliers Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Bhurtpore Barracks 1st Bn Loyal North Lancahsire Regt Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Bhurtpore Barracks 1st Bn Loyal North Lancahsire Regt Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Bhurtpore Barracks 1st Bn Loyal North Lancahsire Regt Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Candahar Barracks 2nd Bn Duke of Wellington's Regt Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Candahar Barracks 2nd Bn Duke of Wellington's Regt Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Delhi Barracks Married Quarters Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Delhi Barracks RAMC Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Jellalabad Barracks 2nd Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Jellalabad Barracks 2nd Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers Hampshire Andover South Tidworth Jellalabad Barracks 2nd Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers Hampshire Carisbrooke Albany Barracks 1st Bn Worcestershire Regt Hampshire Carisbrooke Albany Barracks 1st Bn Worcestershire Regt Hampshire Carisbrooke Albany Barracks 1st Bn Worcestershire Regt Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Blenheim Barracks Marlborough Lines 2nd Bn Grenadier Guards Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Blenheim Barracks Marlborough Lines 2nd Bn Grenadier Guards Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Blenheim Barracks Marlborough Lines Royal Engineers Air Battalion Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Connaught Hospital Various Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Detention Barracks Marlborough Lines Various Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Lille Barracks Marlborough Lines 116th Bty RFA Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Lille Barracks Marlborough Lines Royal Field Artillery Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Malplaquet Barracks Marlborough Lines 1st Bn Norfolk Regt Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Malplaquet Barracks Marlborough Lines 1st Bn Norfolk Regt Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Malplaquet Barracks Marlborough Lines 1st Bn Norfolk Regt Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Oudenarde Barracks Marlborough Lines 1st Bn Cameron Highlanders Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Oudenarde Barracks Marlborough Lines 1st Bn Cameron Highlanders Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Oudenarde Barracks Marlborough Lines 1st Bn Cameron Highlanders Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Oudenarde Barracks Marlborough Lines Married Quarters Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Ramillies Barracks Marlborough Lines 2nd Bn Coldstream Guards Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Ramillies Barracks Marlborough Lines 2nd Bn Coldstream Guards Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Tournay Barracks Marlborough Lines 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Tournay Barracks Marlborough Lines 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers Hampshire Hartley Witney Farnborough Tournay Barracks Marlborough Lines 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Guadaloupe Barracks 2nd Bn Middlesex Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Guadaloupe Barracks 2nd Bn Middlesex Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Guadaloupe Barracks 2nd Bn Middlesex Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Louisberg Barracks 125th Bty RFA Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Louisberg Barracks 126th Bty RFA Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Louisberg Barracks 127th Bty RFA Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Louisberg Barracks 134th Bty RFA Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Louisberg Barracks 135th Bty RFA Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Louisberg Barracks 136th Bty RFA Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Martinique Barracks 2nd Bn Border Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Martinique Barracks 2nd Bn Border Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Martinique Barracks 2nd Bn Border Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Quebec Barracks 1st Bn Royal West Kent Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Quebec Barracks 1st Bn Royal West Kent Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) Quebec Barracks 1st Bn Royal West Kent Regt Hampshire Headley (Bordon) RE Lines 26th Fd Coy RE Hampshire Headley (Bordon) St Lucia Barracks 1st Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers Hampshire Headley (Bordon) St Lucia Barracks 1st Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers Hampshire Headley (Bordon) St Lucia Barracks 1st Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers Hampshire Headley (Bordon) ASC Edited 14 February , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, QGE said: Interesting. Any idea which units were in Lucknow and Mooltan ASC No, but surely we can get close. You know where the four battalions were, and we know that Delhi was the Station Hospital. I suppose, therefore, by elimination,that the three cavalry regiments nominated by SB were in Aliwal, Lucknow and Mooltan. I am pretty sure that I have seen photographs of a Cavalry Church parade of the period at Aliwal, so if I can find those pics then that might.narrow things down. Edited 14 February , 2017 by Stoppage Drill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said: No, but surely we can get close. You know where the four battalions were, and we know that Delhi was the Station Hospital. I suppose, therefore, by elimination,that the three cavalry regiments nominated by SB were in Aliwal, Lucknow and Mooltan. I am pretty sure that I have seen photographs of a Cavalry Church parade of the period at Aliwal, so if I can find those pics then that might.narrow things down. Your assumption was right. North Tidworth is registered in Wiltshire in 1911. Both Barracks (Lucknow and Mooltan) appear, however only one Battalion - 1st Dorsetshire Regt occupying them. 9th Lancers in 1911 were in Canterbury, Kent - subsequently relocated. 4th R Irish DG were in Preston, near Brighton Sussex in 1911. Edited. Confused 9L(Canterbury) with 16L(Norwich) Edited 14 February , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 Having turned up the photos, more confusion. They are captioned "4th/ 7th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, Church Parade, Assaye Barracks 1912" (Plain Soldiering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 3 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said: Having turned up the photos, more confusion. They are captioned "4th/ 7th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, Church Parade, Assaye Barracks 1912" (Plain Soldiering) 4th/7th DG not formed until 1922 ...so possibly a typo: 1912 for 1922 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 (edited) The photos look very 1912. Caption obviously (ha!) should be 4th RIDG. The picture source credit is given to 4/7 DG so presumably from the Regimental Collection. James - a long time WD Land Agent - was a Gunner, so may be forgiven ! Not me though - I know the amalgamation date of the Vulgar Fractions. Mea culpa. Edited 14 February , 2017 by Stoppage Drill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 6 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said: The Tidworth barracks were built several years post Anglo-Boer War. 1904 -05 rings a bell. The main Navvy Camp was Tin Town at Brimstone Bottom, on the road between Tidworth and Ludgershall, near Apple Tree Farm. From January 1902 to July 1904 no fewer than 26,000 men turned seeking work on the barracks. Most of the complex was ready for occupation in 1904, two years after the Second Boer War ended (on May 31, 1902). In December 1898 Tedworth (or Tidworth) House was allocated to OC Royal Engineers on Salisbury Plain. Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 14 February , 2017 Share Posted 14 February , 2017 I have several postcards of each of the barracks, with postmarks ranging from 1905 to 1918; one of Lucknow is postmarked July 1908. I have a general view of the "new barracks" postmarked December 1906. I find it a bit of challenge to identify some buildings shown in general views, as the individual barracks usually look similar. The garrison churches help, as does Ian Hamilton House/Soldiers' Home. Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 15 February , 2017 Share Posted 15 February , 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, Moonraker said: From January 1902 to July 1904 no fewer than 26,000 men turned seeking work on the barracks. Most of the complex was ready for occupation in 1904, two years after the Second Boer War ended (on May 31, 1902). In December 1898 Tedworth (or Tidworth) House was allocated to OC Royal Engineers on Salisbury Plain. Moonraker The house retains the old spelling, as does the hunt. The old stables and kennels are worth a look, though the working kennels have been located just outside Burbage for many a year. The WD tried to sell off the house almost as soon as they acquired it but found no buyer, and that is when, as you say, it was allocated to the CRE Salisbury Plain, Colonel J.M. Barklie. He moved out in 1905 when it became the residence of the GOC-in-C Southern Command, Sir Ian Hamilton. Edited 15 February , 2017 by Stoppage Drill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 15 February , 2017 Share Posted 15 February , 2017 Not sure if this is on-topic, but the local BBC TV News had a piece this evening on the airfields on Salisbury Plain, and particularly those at Stonehenge. Doesn't seem to be on the iPlayer site yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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