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MichaelBully

Fleeing from Britain to Ireland

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MichaelBully

Oh yes. Knew that Romanies were in Britain but hadn't thought how enlistmentment would have impacted on them during the Great War. Regards.

Romanies were in England from about 1500AD.

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KGB

Oh yes. Knew that Romanies were in Britain but hadn't thought how enlistmentment would have impacted on them during the Great War. Regards.

From what I gathered some deliberately avoided it by moving to Ireland and other enlisted as they had lived in "roughman's dark" and could take conditions that "gadjes" could not!

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Magnumbellum

Came across a reference to Romany gypsies arriving in Ireland 1914 (first appearance of traditional wagons) as a means of evading enlistment. Odd as many joined the Infantry and were good (resilient) troops

This does not make sense as it stands, as in 1914 there was no conscription in Britain to evade (and, incidentally, no guarantee that if it did come it would not extend to Ireland).

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KGB

This does not make sense as it stands, as in 1914 there was no conscription in Britain to evade (and, incidentally, no guarantee that if did come it would not extend to Ireland).

Half a point - no conscription until 1916 so perhaps we can add 2 years to the Roma exodus? If you think that conscription would be allowed in Ireland in any way shape or form 1914-16 or 16-18 please show me some evidence as this formed part of my dissertation for my first degree. Whitehall terrified of nationalists with guns :wacko:

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tn.drummond

Half a point - no conscription until 1916 so perhaps we can add 2 years to the Roma exodus? If you think that conscription would be allowed in Ireland in any way shape or form 1914-16 or 16-18 please show me some evidence as this formed part of my dissertation for my first degree. Whitehall terrified of nationalists with guns :wacko:

I can't verify another author's work but you might care to look at my #21 posting.

Tim

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KGB

I can't verify another author's work but you might care to look at my #21 posting.

Tim

Fair point but anyone I interviewed in the 1980's said conscription was a No-No. My areas were border (Bandit Country) and west of Ireland.

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Magnumbellum

Half a point - no conscription until 1916 so perhaps we can add 2 years to the Roma exodus? If you think that conscription would be allowed in Ireland in any way shape or form 1914-16 or 16-18 please show me some evidence as this formed part of my dissertation for my first degree. Whitehall terrified of nationalists with guns :wacko:

What I am certain about is that British conscription was enacted in January 1916 and came into force in March 1916. It followed the failure of the Derby Scheme of autumn 1915 to achieve the required number of volunteers. Until then conscription had been seen as a potential last resort.

I have no knowledge of Roma emigration from Britain to Ireland. If it occurred in 1914 its purpose could not have been to evade conscription. If it occurred in 1916, then it is possible that it was influenced by a desire to evade conscription, but (1) I have never previously heard such a thesis put forward and (2) the Irish exemption from conscription applied to those ordinarily resident in Ireland, not to newcomers.

On the Irish exemption, it is was a hotly contested issue. On the one hand, there was the principle of equality for all; on the other hand, there was the knowledge that attempting to impose conscription on Irish nationalists could give vent to the kind of uprising that actually took place, in a slightly different context, a month or two later at Easter 1916. In the meantime, Ulster unionists, apparently preferring the badge of the slave, complained at being left out of conscription. In the event, Ireland was omitted from the Military Service Act 1916, but both nationalists and unionists were free, as before 1916, to volunteer, as many from both groups.did.

Come 1918, and ever more fodder needed for the rapacious cannons, power was taken to extend conscription to Ireland, but only as a last ditch resort. The power was never actually put into effect, as the Easter Rising had shown how the breakdown of public order could far outweigh any theoretical increase in military manpower.

Conscription itself was not the major issue for Irish nationalism, but it was a significant contributory factor. Incidentally, also, conscription was never imposed on Northern Ireland in WW2 or the post-WW2 period, again to the chagrin of some unionists.

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KGB

What I am certain about is that British conscription was enacted in January 1916 and came into force in March 1916. It followed the failure of the Derby Scheme of autumn 1915 to achieve the required number of volunteers. Until then conscription had been seen as a potential last resort.

I have no knowledge of Roma emigration from Britain to Ireland. If it occurred in 1914 its purpose could not have been to evade conscription. If it occurred in 1916, then it is possible that it was influenced by a desire to evade conscription, but (1) I have never previously heard such a thesis put forward and (2) the Irish exemption from conscription applied to those ordinarily resident in Ireland, not to newcomers.

On the Irish exemption, it is was a hotly contested issue. On the one hand, there was the principle of equality for all; on the other hand, there was the knowledge that attempting to impose conscription on Irish nationalists could give vent to the kind of uprising that actually took place, in a slightly different context, a month or two later at Easter 1916. In the meantime, Ulster unionists, apparently preferring the badge of the slave, complained at being left out of conscription. In the event, Ireland was omitted from the Military Service Act 1916, but both nationalists and unionists were free, as before 1916, to volunteer, as many from both groups.did.

Come 1918, and ever more fodder needed for the rapacious cannons, power was taken to extend conscription to Ireland, but only as a last ditch resort. The power was never actually put into effect, as the Easter Rising had shown how the breakdown of public order could far outweigh any theoretical increase in military manpower.

Conscription itself was not the major issue for Irish nationalism, but it was a significant contributory factor. Incidentally, also, conscription was never imposed on Northern Ireland in WW2 or the post-WW2 period, again to the chagrin of some unionists.

Roma and conscription _ I am not saying there was a wholescale fleeing from England merely that during WW1 the "traditional" wagon first came to Ireland. As to conscription Unionists joined anyway and Republicans were too busy organizing for independence.

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Magnumbellum
On 20/05/2012 at 14:21, MichaelBully said:

I was wondering if anyone has found examples of men who were trying to avoid conscription relocating from Britain to Ireland.

Regards

Michael Bully

 

Pace my earlier reply in this thread, I have now come across a specific case of a conscientious objector migrating to Ireland in WW1 to avoid conscription.

 

The journalist and author Douglas Goldring patriotically voluntered in 1914, but after three months was discharged as medically unfit. In 1916, apparently now fit but having seen through the miasma of patriotism, he contested conscription by applying for exemption as a conscientious objector. His tribunal recognised his objection only to the extent of granting a non-combatant certificate, rendering him liable to call-up to the Non-Combatant Corps, guauranteed not to use or even handle weapons, but nevertheless a cog in the war machine.

 

Goldring's reaction was to migrate to Ireland, where he continued to publicise his criticism of the war in speeches and in writing, but was left alone by the authorities, no further action being taken with regard to call-up.

 

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