temptage Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 I found this headstone in Scartho Road Cemetery this week. It is for Captain Edward Russell who was the Captain of the SS Bury. The Grimsby registered vessel was, one of 78 British vessels, unfortunate enough to have been in German waters, the River Elbe to be exact, at the outbreak of the First World War All the crews were made Prisoners of War. Many of which were interred at the concentration camp at Ruhleben-Spandau. Captain Edward Russell died as a POW aged 53 on 28th December 1917. So even though he was a Merchant Seaman, he was a POW, so why dont the CWGC recognise him as such? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 There may be some more here http://ruhleben.tripod.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 Temptage You can raise it with the CWGC yourself or pass it through the IFTC team. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 Edward Russell isn't listed in any of the death records that I can see He was born In Gravesend, Kent in 1864 The SS Bury was quite a big ship, in the 1911 census, she has a crew of 31 and owned by the G C Railway co (Great Centeral ?) Might pay to repost in the Non - Comms section Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 5 May , 2012 Share Posted 5 May , 2012 If you get round to following that link you were given in post 2 , you will find "Captain Edward Russell Captain Edward Russell was one of the Ruhleben prisoners to sign a message of greeting to Sir Edward Letchworth, Grand Secretary of English Freemasons, postmarked December 9th 1914, and printed in the Times of December 28th 1914 (page 3, col. . The message stated: "Worshipful Sir & Bro., We the undersigned brethren, at present interned with other British civilians at the concentration camp at Ruhleben - Spandau, Germany, send hearty good wishes to the Grand Master, officers and brethren in Great Britain, hoping that we may have the pleasure soon of greeting them personally." Russell, of Grimsby, was named in a list of merchant seamen interned at Ruhleben, as published by the Scotsman newspaper on 7/1/1915 (p.7). Captain Russell was appointed in March 1915 by Powell, the camp captain at Ruhleben, to vice-chair the Watch and Works Department, as reported by the Scotsman on 29/3/1915 and the Times on 29/3/1915 ("More and Better Food at Ruhleben" p.4 col A). The department's remit was to take control o the camp's police, the maintenance of order in the camp, and the control of the hot water boilers, barbers, cobblers and petty tradesmen. In an article in the Scotsman newspaper of October 27th 1915, Captain Russell was listed as captain of Barrack 8 ("Ruhleben Camp - Success of Civil Administration", p.9)." AND Many thanks to April Marjoram for the following, sent to me in July 2009: My ancestor was William Edward Chapman born (abt) 1865 Easington, Yorks; married Alice foster in 1884. He was working on the S.S. Bury which was one of the Great Central Railway steamships which sailed from Grimsby to the continent. It was reported in the Grimsby News on 7 August 1914 "GCR Liner Boarded: Between 8 and 9 o'clock on Friday the Bury was held up by a German squadron consisting of gunboats and torpedo boats......they ordered her to anchor and guarded her all night.........then ordered her to proceed to Hamburg....." I presume that is when the seamen on the vessel were interned. On 28 November 1918 the Eastern Morning News reported "Men, women and children turned out in their thousands to welcome 54 Great Central Railway employees and 127 fishermen from German prison horrors......the party included officers and crew of the steamship Bury.....these vessles were all in German waters when war broke out.....unfortunately Captain Russell and Chief engineer Jackson of the SS Bury died in internment". April has a photo of a card of gratitude signed by the crew of the SS Bury and two other Great Central Railway steamships, including the signature of WE Chapman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 5 May , 2012 Share Posted 5 May , 2012 And if you are looking for CWGC recognition try "Letter from ex prisoner dated 27th March 1918, which refers to deaths at Ruhleben of Captain RUSSEL of ss “bury”; Captain Davidson of ss ”Cogent” and Captain CORDINER of ss “Hepworth”. " From TNA - click Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 5 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2012 I have already read all of the links and webpages, which only go to 'prove' that he has been forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 6 May , 2012 Share Posted 6 May , 2012 Maybe I am missing something, but if he was a merchant mariner and was interned, he was NOT a POW-- Under the Geneva Conventions, he would have had a different classification, even though he was apparently held in a POW/Internee mixed camp. Unless he was on a ship which had been taken into government service, I fail to understand why he should be commemorated by the CWGC. Generally, they don't commemorate interned civilians, do they? Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 6 May , 2012 Share Posted 6 May , 2012 Maybe I am missing something, Afraid you are Capt Cordiner (above) also died there is CWGC recognised - click. And indeed Merchant marine personnel are entitled to CWGC recognition And Berlin South western Cemetery has 5 Merchant Marine men in CWGC graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 6 May , 2012 Share Posted 6 May , 2012 Captain Alexander Cordiner was Mecantile Marine Reserve (MMR), which means he was sailing under Admiralty orders. This may may a difference to qualification. As MMR he also appears on the RN Officers Medal Roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 6 May , 2012 Share Posted 6 May , 2012 I cannot paste the link to CWGC as it will not be valid, but if you go to CWGC and interrogate for "BERLIN SOUTH-WESTERN CEMETERY" and Merchant Marine as force in which served, you get Cordiner plus 4 non officer sailors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 6 May , 2012 Share Posted 6 May , 2012 I stand to be corrected, but I believe that merchant mariners qualify for CWGC commemoration only if lost as a direct result of enemy action or if RNR and serving under RN command. So the fact that some qualify does not mean that all do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 6 May , 2012 Share Posted 6 May , 2012 There is an informative thread here click Terrry Denham, whom one would accept as the authority, writes there The rule for Mercantile Marine men is that they had to die both on duty and of a war cause or a cause due to an increased threat brought on by war. If they did not meet both those conditions, they cannot have war grave status or CWGC commemoration. It is nothing to do with being a combatant. The Mercantile Marine were one of the Recognised Civilian Organisations which got CWGC commemoration if they met these two requirements. However, if a man was in the naval forces, he would get automatic commemoration no matter what the time or cause of death. The men who died of illness listed above obviously did not fit the Mercantile Marine requirement as they seem not to have died of a war cause. The other, Henderson, died as a result of an illness attributable to the effects of a sinking due to a war cause whilst on duty. He actually died of pneumonia whilst held captive aboard a German submarine after the torpedoing - thereby fulfilling both the Mercantile Marine requirements for CWGC commemoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 7 May , 2012 Share Posted 7 May , 2012 I would still like to know if CWGC commemorates interned civilians. My understanding has been that they do not-- is that correct? Thanks. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth Digger Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 I presume this man would be ineligible (he's not on CWGC). Harry Buch was RNVR and a merchant marine 4th mate before the war. In 1914 he went with the Benbow Bn of the RND to Belgium and was interned in Holland. He returned in 1918 and was demobbed in early 1919. In August 1919 he died while serving on a merchant ship in Panama. As no cause of death is known, he is ineligible? HIs widow, however, sought a pension. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 I would still like to know if CWGC commemorates interned civilians. My understanding has been that they do not-- is that correct? Thanks. Doc Easy to get a definitive answer, just send an email to CWGC, anything else is conjecture irrespective of how well informed. I presume this man would be ineligible (he's not on CWGC). Harry Buch was RNVR and a merchant marine 4th mate before the war. In 1914 he went with the Benbow Bn of the RND to Belgium and was interned in Holland. He returned in 1918 and was demobbed in early 1919. In August 1919 he died while serving on a merchant ship in Panama. As no cause of death is known, he is ineligible? HIs widow, however, sought a pension. Mike As he'd been discharged and was serving on a merchant vessel, he'd only be commemorated if his death was a direct result of illness or injury sustained during his service. Did the ship sink or did he die of otther causes? I take it there is no chance of obtaining a Death cert? Did he have any illness' listed on his demob papers? Was the pension claim successful? Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth Digger Posted 3 September , 2012 Share Posted 3 September , 2012 Good questions, Sam. The ship didn't sink; all I have is a death notice in The Times; I don't know about the pension claim. But you are right; if his death was not war related, he wouldn't be on CWGC. I've not gone into much detail with him, as I am more interested in his brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 3 September , 2012 Share Posted 3 September , 2012 This is his entry in the Maritime Deaths Register. Click on the thumbnail for a larger size. Sadly there are a few entries where the cause of death is unknown and Harry is one of them. Does this mean a death certificate would not include the cause of death? I don't know. CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth Digger Posted 3 September , 2012 Share Posted 3 September , 2012 I don't know either, CGM. Would there be a British certificate? Thank you very much for finding this. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 3 September , 2012 Share Posted 3 September , 2012 Mike, I will check and get back to you tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 3 September , 2012 Share Posted 3 September , 2012 The answer is not here per se http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&404 as this is for Scotland but it relates to registry of deaths and there should be parallel entries for England and Wales, scroll down half way to "Minor records" and read the explanations for "Consular returns", "Foreign returns" and most importantly "Marine register". If there is an equivilent for England and Wales, he should be covered under at least one of them. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 3 September , 2012 Share Posted 3 September , 2012 As he died in Panama, there would be no original British death certificate. There was a responsibility for overseas and maritime deaths to be reported to the British authorities, and then on to the UK, which was done. The entry (in this case) is then entered in the Maritime Deaths Register. A British certificate can then be issued, but as the only information is that which was reported, and which is contained in the Register, this is what will appear on a new certificate. If a cause of death was not officially reported, it won't/cannot appear on any copy certificate. Presumably, if the cause of death was ever known, it might have been passed on personally to the family by a friend or colleague. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth Digger Posted 4 September , 2012 Share Posted 4 September , 2012 Thanks Sam and Sue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 4 September , 2012 Share Posted 4 September , 2012 Thank you very much Sue and Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 4 September , 2012 Share Posted 4 September , 2012 The fact that the subject of this thread is not recorded by the CWGC should come no surprise whatsoever as the Merchant Navy have been treated as the “poor relation” of the other services for a very long time. Just consider that if you were a member of the three services you would be recorded on the Debt of Honour Database and receive a formal CWGC headstone even if death was due to suicide, illness or in fact shot at dawn for murder etc. Some members will know that until revoked it was a rule that in WW2 any merchant navy seaman who had the misfortune to be on a ship which was sunk due to enemy action would have his discharge book stamped “discharged at sea” and any wages would stop leaving him totally dependent on charity. I have been notified that this sailor Robert Bowditch was on the SS Sappho when he was interned at the camp and died there but no record as far as I can see on the CWGC. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now