essexboy Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 Hello My first post and a real shot in the dark. I've recentley bought a threewheeler cyclecar and my researches have led me to believe it may have been used in the first world war. Iv'e traced it back to H.R. Robinson and his son Wilf Robinson who owned a blacksmith shop in Longhoughton ,Northumberland. Evidentley,Wilf ,born in 1904 ,drove a taxi for the military at 14 years old,maybe at R.F.C Stn Southfields and was quite a lad ! The car was in the rafters of their shop from 1924 to 1980 and the colour is military drab green. I think the family were from Alnwick and were well known to local Air Bases for their smithy work. I need to find the make of this car to get a log book and wondered if the military would have any records or point me in the right direction. Any help would be great. Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 What make is it? Apart from about 3 Scott motor tricycles (which looked like motor cycle combinations) trialled but not adopted. the British army did not use three wheelers in WW1. They did use an awful lot of motor cycle combinations. Some cyclist units used AC Carriers but these were phased out before WW1. Germany used some 3 wheelers. A photo would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 The early Morgans were three wheelers and seem to have been a hit with airmen / pilots - could that be the WW1 link especially with the airbase connection ? Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexboy Posted 29 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2012 The early Morgans were three wheelers and seem to have been a hit with airmen / pilots - could that be the WW1 link especially with the airbase connection ? Thanks Grant, No,it's not a Morgan {worse luck} I v'e already checked all the easy ones over the last month. It's hard to find pictures from that era,but thanks again. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 Bob, Why not stick some piccys on here ? Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 The early Morgans were three wheelers and seem to have been a hit with airmen / pilots - could that be the WW1 link especially with the airbase connection ? Grant But not until post WW1. (actually 3 wheel Morgans are still being produced at a factory near me - I wish I could afford one). However BSA and others also produced similar cycle cars ( I knew a 1960's test pilot who drove one - he found it more exciting than Mach 2 jets). Sopwith produced a car with a rotary engine powering the front wheels - the nearest thing you could get to driving a Camel without a pilots license (until you hit a bump) - Hawker didn't take it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexboy Posted 29 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2012 But not until post WW1. (actually 3 wheel Morgans are still being produced at a factory near me - I wish I could afford one). However BSA and others also produced similar cycle cars ( I knew a 1960's test pilot who drove one - he found it more exciting than Mach 2 jets). Sopwith produced a car with a rotary engine powering the front wheels - the nearest thing you could get to driving a Camel without a pilots license (until you hit a bump) - Hawker didn't take it up. Hi Been trying to attach pics but failed each time.Will try again tomorrow. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 But not until post WW1. http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/history.html According to the Morgan3 website, they were first made in 1910 and by 1914 (the out break of the war) had won 10 british and world wide records and 24 gold medals in realiability trials It won the first international cyclecar race at Brooklands by over 2 minutes in 1918 they resumed full producion, A few years earlier "WW1 flying ace" Captain Albert Ball had ordered a special bodied Grand Prix of which he said "to drive this car was the nearest thing to flying without leaving the ground" Captain Ball was shot down and killed shortly after taking delivery of his car - there is only one Captain Ball listed in CWGC (VC, DSO + 2 bars, MC) and he was killed on 07/05/17, which places the Morgan three wheeler being used by pilots in WW1 Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 http://www.morgan3wh...uk/history.html According to the Morgan3 website, they were first made in 1910 and by 1914 (the out break of the war) had won 10 british and world wide records and 24 gold medals in realiability trials It won the first international cyclecar race at Brooklands by over 2 minutes in 1918 they resumed full producion, A few years earlier "WW1 flying ace" Captain Albert Ball had ordered a special bodied Grand Prix of which he said "to drive this car was the nearest thing to flying without leaving the ground" Captain Ball was shot down and killed shortly after taking delivery of his car - there is only one Captain Ball listed in CWGC (VC, DSO + 2 bars, MC) and he was killed on 07/05/17, which places the Morgan three wheeler being used by pilots in WW1 Grant Balls car was a one off specially built for him and as the text clearly shows normal production was suspended during WW1and not resumed until 1920 - so not used by pilots in WW1 any more than the Austin Ball fighter was flown by the RFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/history.html "WW1 flying ace" Captain Albert Ball had ordered a special bodied Grand Prix of which he said "to drive this car was the nearest thing to flying without leaving the ground" Grant Grant, Here is a photograph of Capt. Ball in his wartime Morgan 3 wheeler. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 Balls car was a one off specially built for him and as the text clearly shows normal production was suspended during WW1and not resumed until 1920 - so not used by pilots in WW1 any more than the Austin Ball fighter was flown by the RFC The text dosn't state that production was suspended during the war, the text states " ....When peace returned in 1918, Morgan was one of the first manufactures to resume full production" that implys that production didn't cease, and is proven but the fact that they made Balls car sometime between 1915 and 1917 Capt Balls car didnt have a "one off special body" , The Grand Prix was the name given to the model that won the International Cyclecar Grand Prix in France in 1913 And where did all the cars go that were made from 1910 until 1914? why didnt pilots drive them ? Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 29 April , 2012 Share Posted 29 April , 2012 Bob, There were a lot of cyclecars and light cars made around that era and not uncommon for a smithy to put something together himself. Interested in seeing your images of the car. Have you identified the engine and configuration? Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 April , 2012 Share Posted 30 April , 2012 Threewheeler, Welcome to the Forum. Your 3 Wheeler could certainly have been used by members of the military during WW1, as production of Morgan's 3 Wheelers continued throughout WW1, and other RFC men, in addition to Capt. Ball could have owned them. Based on an extract from Morgan's own " History ", it shows that Grantowi is in fact correct, and that Morgan production did continue throughout WW1, and in the Summer of 1914 Morgan actually greatly enlarged and expanded their factory. Although development of the new factory was only " curtailed " not stopped or suspended during WW1, production at Morgan's Worcester Road factory also continued throughout WW1. As is evidenced by Morgan's quote " one wartime customer, the famous flying ace Capt. Albert Ball of the Royal Flying Corps, had ordered a special bodied Grand Prix ". Their use of " one wartime customer " indicates other wartime customers. " In December 1913, HFS ( Morgan ) purchased a plot of land on Pickersleigh Road, Malvern Link, from Earl Beauchamp. This was open farmland just a quarter of a mile from the Worcester Road factory and here, in the Summer of 1914, two large workshops were built. This is now the site of the present factory, which has traditionally been known as " The Works ". Development of the Pickersleigh Road site was soon curtailed by the outbreak of the First World War, and whilst production continued at Worcester Road, the output dwindled as men were called up to fight and existing resources were allocated to munitions production. One wartime customer, the famous flying ace Capt. Albert Ball of the Royal Flying Corps, had ordered a special bodied Grand Prix.... " It is important to note from the extract that Morgan production never ceased throughout WW1, and they did have " customers " one of whom was Albert Ball. It is therefore logical that they could have had other customers from the RFC., and I am sure Albert Ball was pleased to show off his new Morgan Grand Prix to all his RFC pals, some of whom may have also become WW1 Morgan customers. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 30 April , 2012 Share Posted 30 April , 2012 Many thanks for the additional informatiom LF, I didnt think I read it wrong. Sorry for taking your thread off track, threewheeler. Now that we have sorted out the Morgan issue, we can get back to your motor Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 April , 2012 Share Posted 30 April , 2012 Hello My first post and a real shot in the dark. I've recentley bought a threewheeler cyclecar and my researches have led me to believe it may have been used in the first world war. Threewheeler, As you can see there is a lot of interest in your cyclecar. I there any chance of some photographs, or any clue as to its make ? LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexboy Posted 30 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2012 HI Threewheeler, As you can see there is a lot of interest in your cyclecar. I there any chance of some photographs, or any clue as to its make ? LF HI LF. Iv'e been trying to send some photos but seem to be having trouble shrinking them to the right size. The car is definately not a Morgan as the photo's will show hopefully tomorrow.If the car was in military use would there have been numbers or letters on the top of the bonnet as this area has been scraped clean many years ago? Sorry again about the pics,this is all a bit new to me. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 May , 2012 Share Posted 1 May , 2012 Just a thought,if someone e.mailed me I could send my pics to them with maybe more luck. thanks, Bob Bob, I have emailed you, and will gladly try to re-size the photographs for you. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 May , 2012 Share Posted 1 May , 2012 Here are the series of 5 photographs of Bob's WW1 vintage 3 wheeler. Hopefully, members will be able to give Bob some good information on the maker, the vehicle's registration number is also shown, as is the engine, which looks similar to that on some types of early Morgan's. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexboy Posted 1 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2012 Thanks L F. Pics are great. The reg no is from Northumberland around 1921 but that was a re-reg when log books started properly. The engine is a Premier about 1920ish but i'm sure i'ts not the original. The little lever on the side at the top is the gear lever!! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 1 May , 2012 Share Posted 1 May , 2012 Very nice It looks like the cockpit is wooden wit metal bonnet and rear wheel cover, is that right ? Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexboy Posted 1 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2012 Y Very nice It looks like the cockpit is wooden wit metal bonnet and rear wheel cover, is that right ? Grant Yes you are right. The body ''tub'' is thin ply on an oak frame. The bonnet and wheel cover are made of what seems to be galvanised steel. The whole thing seems very made,not something that was knocked up in a shed although the pedals are very blacksmith-like in appearance. The front axle is a Chater-Lea who were well known for supplying cyclecar equipment and even built their own cars for a short while. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 2 May , 2012 Share Posted 2 May , 2012 Bob, That's quite a project you have there! I agree the body does look like it was made by a coachbuilder. It might be worth contacting the Vintage Sports Car Club for help identifying this one. I've had a look through several books I have on veteran/vintage cars and I can't see anything like that one. The motoring historian G.N Georgano notes regarding cyclecars that in the spring of 1913 there were 107 models on the British market, 32 of which were chain drive two-seaters, 30 belt driven and 40 shaft driven. The Precision engines were propietary units. Would be interested in hearing how you go with this one? I gather the radiator shell is missing (I'm assuming its liquid cooled?). Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 2 May , 2012 Share Posted 2 May , 2012 Bob, Looking at some old directorys (1914) for Northumberland There is an Archbold Hall, Joiner, Coach builder, Motor car body maker, Undertaker and Contractor living in Clayport St, Alnwick There is no listing for Longhoughton, which if Im looking at the right place is tiny, so I would assume that it was governed from Alnwick and there dosn't seem to be any car manufacters locally either for Mr Hall to supply. No listing for a H R Robinson either Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 2 May , 2012 Share Posted 2 May , 2012 Found your man in the 1911 census Henry Bell Robinson, b 1868 Longhoughton, a Blacksmith Married for 23 yrs to Isabella, b 1865 Woller Three children- Margaret Isabella, b 1888 Longhoughton, a Housekepper George Henry, b 1895 Benwell (?), a Farm Servent Labourer Wilfred Thomas, b 1904 Denwick, at School All living at Denwick - just NE of Alnwick, tad over 2 miles from Longhoughton Went back to the 1914 directory and found Henry Robinson, Blacksmith, living in Long Houghton Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexboy Posted 2 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2012 Thanks Scott and Grant. Nice to know other people are as interested in lost causes as I am! The V.S.CC have 2 chaps researching this for me at the moment and they NEVER give up !! The last 3 owners have all tried to find out the make so if it was easy they would have cracked it I think the Robinson family and their military link is the key to the story, so far I'm the only one to get that far and youv'e just comfirmed that Wilf was the son who left the blacksmith shop to his nephew ? Tom Weightman who promptly sold the site for development. Evidently Tom Weightman,an airman,crashed twice in WW2 and was the only survivor each time. He was the one who sold the car in 1980 to a chap called Sam,whom iv'e spoken to recently. The chase continues. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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