George Leonard Cheesman

[michaeldr]

however objectively I look at the August days, it seems from my reading so far that the chance of meeting any real military objective by 9th August /10th August 1915 has gone.

The enemy did not think so at the time: from Five Years in Turkey by Liman

– p.87 “If on August 15^th or 16^th the British had taken the Kiretch Tepe they would have outflanked the entire Fifth Army and final success might have befallen them… … …

- P.89 “The Anafarta landing was an enterprise planned on a grand scale, intended to open the Dardanelles to the Allies by land action while at the same time cutting the Fifth Army from its communications. If the Anafarta landing served to bring the Dardanelles Campaign to a tactical decision as desired by the British the batteries of the fortress on the straits would have been quickly silenced as they had little ammunition. The mine-fields in the straits could then be removed and no further difficulties would lay in the way of combined action of the victorious British Army and the Allied fleet. In this case the lines of Tchataldja (Chalalja), not far from the gates of Constantinople, which had saved the city in the Turko-Bulgarian War, would be of little value, because both flanks would have been under the fire of the enemy’s fleets. A Russian landing would no doubt have coincided with the Anglo-French operations. At that time many reports from Bucharest and Athens mentioned the concentration of troops and ships in Odessa.”

regards

Michael

[MichaelBully]

Hello Michael, thank you for the response, interesting. I think that there is a lot for someone like myself who is only just starting to study Gallipoli to ponder.

1) The standard Westerner v. Easterner debate. Personally I have found the recent debate elsewhere on GWF very informative. People who have studied Gallipoli for a long time might feel that the same old debates re-occur time and time again, but to someone like myself, it was very stimulating to read.

2) The question of the 'August Days' 1915 having the potential to lead to an Entente breakthrough at Gallipoli if someone broadly accepts the 'Easterner' view.

3) The consideration that even if the first two are met, by the time that Cheesman was effectively in action August9th/August 10th 1915, had the Turkish forces obtained the advantage, to the point that little could be redeemed from the Entente perspective.

Regards, Michael Bully

The enemy did not think so at the time: from Five Years in Turkey by Liman

– p.87 “If on August 15^th or 16^th the British had taken the Kiretch Tepe they would have outflanked the entire Fifth Army and final success might have befallen them… … …

- P.89 “The Anafarta landing was an enterprise planned on a grand scale, intended to open the Dardanelles to the Allies by land action while at the same time cutting the Fifth Army from its communications. If the Anafarta landing served to bring the Dardanelles Campaign to a tactical decision as desired by the British the batteries of the fortress on the straits would have been quickly silenced as they had little ammunition. The mine-fields in the straits could then be removed and no further difficulties would lay in the way of combined action of the victorious British Army and the Allied fleet. In this case the lines of Tchataldja (Chalalja), not far from the gates of Constantinople, which had saved the city in the Turko-Bulgarian War, would be of little value, because both flanks would have been under the fire of the enemy’s fleets. A Russian landing would no doubt have coincided with the Anglo-French operations. At that time many reports from Bucharest and Athens mentioned the concentration of troops and ships in Odessa.”

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Michael,

I’m not sure how the other debate impinged upon Cheesman and the Hampshires in August 1915

Except perhaps in that Hamilton had asked for Byng in June, but Byng was refused by K without his even asking French, only for Hamilton to be proved right when Byng was appointed on 23rd August.

The OH puts it thus (see Vol.II, p.368) “The experienced pilot had arrived. But the ship to be steered into port was already on the rocks”

Earlier the OH has a footnote (p.74) “Later the army paid dearly for this refusal to ask Sir John French for the services of a specially qualified officer to command the new corps….”

The author of the OH might also have added that Ian Hamilton too paid very dearly for K’s first refusal of Byng

by the time that Cheesman was effectively in action August9th/August 10th 1915, had the Turkish forces obtained the advantage, to the point that little could be redeemed from the Entente perspective.

Liman thought there was a doubt. As well as the ref given previously in FYIT, Callwell also refers to it appearing in an interview given by Liman in November 1918: the quoted words are "touch and go"

See also Kannengiesser who refers (his p. 224) to "These were again days of the heaviest fighting on which the balance of success semed to tremble, swinging to and fro."

regards

Michael

[MichaelBully]

Hello Michael

Thank you for your help, I am hoping to get to the British Library next week so will try to consult Linman .Can you remind me of Kannengiesser source ?

Just realised that this topic has got the 'hot' tag on GWF. Thanks again to everyone who has posted.

Michael Bully

Michael,

I’m not sure how the other debate impinged upon Cheesman and the Hampshires in August 1915

Except perhaps in that Hamilton had asked for Byng in June, but Byng was refused by K without his even asking French, only for Hamilton to be proved right when Byng was appointed on 23rd August.

The OH puts it thus (see Vol.II, p.368) “The experienced pilot had arrived. But the ship to be steered into port was already on the rocks”

Earlier the OH has a footnote (p.74) “Later the army paid dearly for this refusal to ask Sir John French for the services of a specially qualified officer to command the new corps….”

The author of the OH might also have added that Ian Hamilton too paid very dearly for K’s first refusal of Byng

Liman thought there was a doubt. As well as the ref given previously in FYIT, Callwell also refers to it appearing in an interview given by Liman in November 1918: the quoted words are "touch and go"

See also Kannengiesser who refers (his p. 224) to "These were again days of the heaviest fighting on which the balance of success semed to tremble, swinging to and fro."

regards

Michael

[MichaelBully]

Hello Michael

Thank you for your help, I am hoping to get to the British Library next week so will try to consult Linman .Can you remind me of Kannengiesser source ?

Just realised that this topic has got the 'hot' tag on GWF. Thanks again to everyone who has posted.

EDIT: Michael , was wondering in view of your comments in post 32 , how accurate Linman's view was? I appreciate that you have visited the places concerned. Do you think that the military action on 9th August 1915/10th August 1915 could have dislodged the Turkish forces from what seems to have been very advantageous position.

Michael Bully

[michaeldr]

Can you remind me of Kannengiesser source ?

Michael,

see 'The Campaign in Gallipoli' by Hans Kannengiesser Pasha, Prussian & Turkish Major-General, first published c.1927

Translated by Major C J P Ball DSO, MC (served at Gallipoli with 15th Bde RHA, 29th Div)

the book is available as a reprint from the N & M Press

I'll have a look at your other question later, if I may

best regagards

Michael

[MichaelBully]

Thanks Michael, have reserved this book and also 'Five Years in Turkey' to read at 'The British Library' next week. Regards, Michael Bully

Michael,

see 'The Campaign in Gallipoli' by Hans Kannengiesser Pasha, Prussian & Turkish Major-General, first published c.1927

Translated by Major C J P Ball DSO, MC (served at Gallipoli with 15th Bde RHA, 29th Div)

the book is available as a reprint from the N & M Press

I'll have a look at your other question later, if I may

best regagards

Michael

[michaeldr]

I'll have a look at your other question later, if I may

Further to the above

how accurate Linman's view was?

It was most probably based on reports which he had from the front and perhaps also from aerial observations (though I am unable to confirm the latter at the moment). Erickson writing in his ‘Gallipoli – the Ottoman Campaign’ thinks that the information getting back to Liman was not as complete as it should have been. He thinks that the local commander, Major Wilmer, “became personally involved in the fighting and was thus unable to render timely reports”

There is another question of course:

does it matter?

Surely one of the objects of the exercise is to persuade the opposing commander to think that it is you and not he who has the upper-hand

In any event neither Liman nor MK took any chances, both sending reinforcements

regards

Michael

Edited 3 November , 2012 by michaeldr

[MichaelBully]

Thank you for that Michael . There's a couple of points that came to light regarding the 'August Days' that have appeared on the Gallipoli Association Forum,but that seems to be down at present. More later

With best wishes

Michael Bully

[MichaelBully]

Just found this from the most impressive 'Long Long Trail' website : Sir Ian Hamilton's Third Gallipoli despatch: Interesting as seems quite ambiguous . The impression given is that early 10th August 1915, the fighting went in the favour of the Turks, but that later during the day the Entente forces began to rally round.

To Lord Kitchener dated 11th December 1915, and later published 6th January 1916.

http://www.1914-1918.net/hamiltons_gallipoli_despatch_3.html

" ...........At daybreak on Tuesday, 10th August, the Turks delivered a grand attack from the line Chunuk Bair-Hill Q against these two battalions, already weakened in numbers, though not in spirit, by previous fighting. First our men were shelled by every enemy gun, and then, at 5.30 a.m., were assaulted by a huge column, consisting of no less than a full division plus a regiment of three battalions. The North Lancashire men were simply overwhelmed in their shallow trenches by sheer weight of numbers, whilst the Wilts, who were caught out in the open, were literally almost annihilated. The ponderous mass of the enemy swept over the crest, turned the right flank of our line below, swarmed round the Hampshires and General Baldwin's column, which had to give ground, and were only extricated with great difficulty and very heavy losses.

Now it was our turn. The warships and the New Zealand and Australian Artillery, the Indian Mountain Artillery Brigade, and the 69th Brigade Royal Field Artillery were getting the chance of a lifetime. As the successive solid lines of Turks topped the crest of the ridge gaps were torn through their formation, and an iron rain fell on them as they tried to reform in the gullies. Not here only did the Turks pay dearly for their recapture of the vital crest. Enemy reinforcements continued to move up Battleship Hill under heavy and accurate fire from our guns, and still they kept topping the ridges and pouring down the western slopes of the Chunuk Bair as if determined to regain everything they had lost. But once they were over the crest they became exposed not only to the full blast of the guns, naval and military, but also to a battery of ten machine-guns belonging to the New Zealand Infantry Brigade, which played upon their serried ranks at close range until the barrels were red hot. Enormous losses were inflicted, especially by these ten machine-guns; and, of the swarms which had once fairly crossed the crest line, only the merest handful ever straggled back to their own side of Chunuk Bair.

At this same time strong forces of the enemy (forces which I had reckoned would have been held, back to meet our advance from Suvla Bay) were hurled against the Farm and the spurs to the north-east, where there arose a conflict so deadly that it may be considered as the climax of the four days' fighting for the ridge. Portions of our line were pierced, and the troops driven clean down the hill. At the foot of the hill the men were rallied by Staff Captain Street, who was there supervising the transport of food and water. Without a word, unhesitatingly, they followed him back to the Farm, where they plunged again into the midst of that series of struggles in which generals fought in the ranks and men dropped their scientific weapons and caught one another by the throat. So desperate a battle cannot be described. The Turks came on again and again, fighting magnificently, calling upon, the name of God. Our men stood to it, and maintained, by many a deed of daring, the old traditions of their race. There was no flinching. They died in the ranks where they stood. Here Generals Cayley, Baldwin, and Cooper and all their gallant men achieved great glory. On this bloody field fell Brigadier-General Baldwin, who earned his first laurels on Caesar's Camp at Ladysmith. There, too, fell Brigadier-General Cooper, badly wounded; and there, too, fell Lieutenant-Colonel M. H. Nunn, commanding the 9th Worcestershire Regiment; Lieutenant-Colonel H. G. Levinge, commanding the 6th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment; and Lieutenant-Colonel J. Garden, commanding the 5th Wiltshire Regiment.

Towards this supreme struggle the absolute last two battalions from the General Reserve were now hurried, but by ten a.m. the effort of the enemy was spent. Soon their shattered remnants began to trickle back, leaving a track of corpses behind them, and by night, except prisoners or wounded, no live Turk was left upon our side of the slope........"

[seaJane]

MichaelB,

Slight tangent but today is the birthday of James Elroy Flecker. Here's a few lines from his "The Old Warship Ablaze":

Against hard odds thy crew played all their part,

Driving thee deathwards that the foe should smart

Till the guns brake and fire leapt up insane,

And they abandoned thee, to fight again,

Who on thy deck, where flicker the gaunt flames,

Have left so many dead, won such proud names.

[MichaelBully]

Hello SJ- Thank you for the reminder re. JEF birthday (yesterday). Yes 'The Old Warship Ablaze' is a maginifcent poem. Regards , Michael Bully

MichaelB,

Slight tangent but today is the birthday of James Elroy Flecker. Here's a few lines from his "The Old Warship Ablaze":

Against hard odds thy crew played all their part,

Driving thee deathwards that the foe should smart

Till the guns brake and fire leapt up insane,

And they abandoned thee, to fight again,

Who on thy deck, where flicker the gaunt flames,

Have left so many dead, won such proud names.

[MichaelBully]

More on the August 6th - 10th August 1915 action which mentions 10th Hampshires from Official History of Australia in WW1. Many thanks for the Gallipoli Association Forum for pointing me to this source.

1. With regard to the previous quote from Murrary Hicks' account ( Post 75 of this thread ) seems it was that it was the Endymion not the Queen Elizabeth that was engaged in naval action.

2. This work also gives the view that this action had real potential to have changed the outcome of the Gallipoli campaign .

http://www.awm.gov.a...f-vol2-ch25.pdf

Found ( Frederick) Murray Hicks' records at the National Archives WO339/39850 . More later.

[trajan]

This seems to be new: http://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/archive/george-leonard-cheesman/

[seaJane]

Thanks Julian!

[MichaelBully]

What a find ! Thanks . much appreciated Trajan ! Particularly pleased to see a photograph . Regards, Michael Bully

[trajan]

Thanks Julian!

What a find ! Thanks . much appreciated Trajan ! Particularly pleased to see a photograph . Regards, Michael Bully

Happy to help! The photograph is a real bonus, and gives me some sense of the man,,, I will have it copied and placed in my copy of his 'Roman Auxilia'.

Julian

[MichaelBully]

Jonathan Trigg , a fellow member of the 'Sussex and the Great War' Facebook group, directed me to an on-line article he wrote which references George Cheesman -amongst others- as both a historian and archaeologist . Shared here with Jonathan's permission.

https://harngroup.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/war-stories-part-3-post-by-jonathan-trigg/

[trajan]

Jonathan Trigg , a fellow member of the 'Sussex and the Great War' Facebook group, directed me to an on-line article he wrote which references George Cheesman -amongst others- as both a historian and archaeologist . Shared here with Jonathan's permission.

https://harngroup.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/war-stories-part-3-post-by-jonathan-trigg/

Many thanks for posting that! The note that: "Cheesman himself wrote letters to many of his friends stating that he was fighting on historical ground to win back the Roman capital from the Turks." was certainly a revelation...

[MichaelBully]

Yes oops! Perhaps the writer meant to say 'Eastern Roman capital ' ! But I think that we know what he intended to write..... regards

Many thanks for posting that! The note that: "Cheesman himself wrote letters to many of his friends stating that he was fighting on historical ground to win back the Roman capital from the Turks." was certainly a revelation...

[trajan]

One hundred years ago today...

 

[trajan]

Never forgotten...

Julian