Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
ARKWRIGHT

Theatre of war change

Recommended Posts

ARKWRIGHT

Hi.

As my grandfather Frank Graver had been awarded the DCM in France in 1918 I had assumed he had served with the 1st Norfolks from 1914, but after downloading these two MIDs it would appear not to be so.

Am I right in thinking that the entry 2B Balkans and the date 9.8.15 points to him having taken part in the landings at Suvla bay ?, in which case it would have been with the 1/4th territorial Norfolk battalion.

Nobody in the family knows what happened to Franks medals but I do have a few old photographs which show men of the Norfolk regiment parading in Watford and also troops in tropical uniform, unfortunately all these troops are armed with what appear to be long Lee Enfields or similar rifles not SMLEs.

Could anybody help with the following questions ?

Is it possible to find out when Frank was transferred from one front to another?

Were all troops armed with SMLEs at the start of the war ?

The enlistment date 4.8.14 does this indicate when Frank joined the army or when his battalion was mobilised or is this the same thing ?.

What do the series of letters and numbers under Action taken and on the right hand side of the same card mean ?.

Thanks in anticipation

Ray.

post-31-1091874312.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HarryBettsMCDCM

His Service Numbers are both Territorial Numbers; the 6 Figure one ;the 1916 Re~Numbering Number.his initial 2081 Number indicates he was probably serving just before the War,I expect he was posted to another Battalion,after being Taken Ill;Wounded or Injured in Gallipoli{The 1st/4th & 1st/5th TF Bns served in Egypt & Palestine after Gallipoli},upon recovery{The Medal Rolls would indicate his Battalions Served in}Not an uncommon occourence.The Number under action taken are the List/Page Reference Numbers for the Decoration the Card Refers to, the numbers across the page,appear to be ,File numbers for the relevant King's Regulations/Army Orders{K.R./A.O.}document.posibly relating to his Discharge?

His enlistment date is when he Joined Up,Not the same as Mobilisation,which is the date they were actually embodied,ready for War Service{there could be some time lapse between these two dates,The Embarkation date[9.8.1915] is the Date he & his unit left the UK to go to their Theatre of War.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris_Baker

As ever, looking up the actual medal rolls (the codes for which are shown on your MIC) would be advisable. They will confirm the battalions, at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hmsk212

The second Medal Index card is a Silver War Badge card and the references shown are for the War Badge roll on which he will appear and the reason for his discharge, (P392 xvi - No longer physically fit for War Service - either sickness or wounds)

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
steve fuller

Hi Ray

4th August 1914 would have been the TF soldiers enlisting for Oversees Duty (their conditions for service didnt include Oversees, so they were 'asked' to sign for fighting away). The TF signed up for Regular Service in August 1914.

The 9th August 1915 would have been when he LANDED at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli. The British opened up another 'front' at Suvla from 6th August. I went through he same with my Gt Gramps. He landed Suvla the day after yours (10th August) in the 5th Beds, 162 Brigade.

If he was 1st Norfolks, he was a Regular Army unit pre war by the looks of it. 15th Brigade, 5th Division. They were in France from the beginning I think.

From Memory, the 1/4th and 1/5th Norfolks were in the 163rd Brigade, same division (54th East Anglian) as my man, so would have been to Gallipoli. If he was wounded or ill enough to take him back to the UK (as my relative was) he would have been reassigned to the most suitable Unit available when recovered, hence sent off to France (again, as mine was). He would have shown up on the local Diocese lists as wounded whilst in Blighty (no dates though). Usually held at local archives (Norwich at a guess??).

As far as transfer dates and reasons go, I believe the service papers hold that, but mine arent available, so I could be wrong :rolleyes: Gallipoli saw a large percentage of illness, especially enteric ones, so odds of a wound and illness are possible.

If he won the DCM, may be an entry on the Battalion diary? Maybe a write up in the Regmnt history????? If so, worth establishing which unit he was in when won, and getting your eyes on those diaries! :D

Definitely post the pics (if OK to), as the uniforms etc may give clues mate ...

Best of luck to you.

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ARKWRIGHT

Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated.

Steve.

The top photo is in the form of a postcard sent by my grandfather, unfortunately the date stamp is unreadable, the poster advertising Fred Karno is for the Palace Theatre, Watford.

In F Loraine Petre`s History of the Norfolk regiment it states the 1/4 Norfolks were in Watford from May 20th to May 29th before leaving for Liverpool and Suvla Bay, is there any connection ?.

There is still the question of did the army take long lee enfield rifles to war, which in retrospect I should have posted on a different forum..

I intend to visit the PRO shortly but would appreciate help with the following MIC

I have just discovered Frank had two brothers both killed during the war, one MIC for 6773 Pte Charles Henry Graver Norfolk Regiment under Theatre of war has ( 5a ) and what looks like Asiatic, and entry date of 26.12.14.

Any ideas ?.

Ray

post-31-1092253945.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
steve fuller

Ray

Westlakes British Regmts in Gallipoli confirms the 1/4th and 1/5th Norfolks in Watford, both left for Liverpool 29th July, sailing same day on Aquitaine, and landed A beach Suvla 10th August. Looks like its him, but which Battalion?

The Watford postcard seems good to me (IMHO). A poster 90 years ago is only likely to advertise more local events surely?

Cant help with the rifles mate.

Do you know the cwgc.org site? If not, worth knowing. Lists only 1 'C Graver':

Name: GRAVER, CHARLES HENRY

Initials: C H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: Norfolk Regiment

Unit Text: "E" Coy. 2nd Bn.

Age: 29

Date of Death: 20/09/1916

Service No: 6773

Additional information: Son of Charles and Lydia Graver, of 10, Thorn Lane, Ber St., Norwich.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: XXI. K. 47.

Cemetery: BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY

Even shows his Brother's Company. Very nice.

Hope this helps

Steve :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ARKWRIGHT

Steve.

In the space of three days I not only discovered my grandfather had lost two brothers but thanks to you I even know were they were buried,

I had no idea the cwgc even had a web site let alone could supply so much information.

Cheers mate, thanks for all your help.

Ray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Pete Wood

While in Watford, the Norfolks (and the rest of the Division) did most of their training in Cassiobury Park, Watford.

If you go there, walk down to the duck pond and you can still see signs of where they dug their practice trenches.

There are quite a few photos of the Norfolks in the Watford Gazette, being issued with their tropical kit.

The 1/4 Norfolks were, if I remember correctly, the winners (or was it runners up?) of the inter-division football.

Before coming to Watford, the division was based in Bury St Edmunds, where they were, inadvertantly, the target of a Zeppelin attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ARKWRIGHT

Racing Teapots.

Thanks a bunch for the information, could you please let me know more about the Watford gazette as I would like to see the photos you mentioned, and cannot find anything on the net.

Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jock Bruce
Hi Ray

4th August 1914 would have been the TF soldiers enlisting for Oversees Duty (their conditions for service didnt include Oversees, so they were 'asked' to sign for fighting away). The TF signed up for Regular Service in August 1914.

Steve,

sorry, but I think you're wrong on this - it is the date of enlistment.

I've never seen an instance of the date used on the SWB card/roll being that of a man signing the Imperial Service obligation - the additional commitment whereby a man on a TF engagement undertook to serve overseas.

Jock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jock Bruce
While in Watford, the Norfolks (and the rest of the Division) did most of their training in Cassiobury Park, Watford.

If you go there, walk down to the duck pond and you can still see signs of where they dug their practice trenches.

There are quite a few photos of the Norfolks in the Watford Gazette, being issued with their tropical kit.

The 1/4 Norfolks were, if I remember correctly, the winners (or was it runners up?) of the inter-division football.

Before coming to Watford, the division was based in Bury St Edmunds, where they were, inadvertantly, the target of a Zeppelin attack.

Whilst at Watford 1/4 Norfolks were not a happy bunch. The story can be read at Kew in WO 32/18563: ¼ Battalion Norfolk Regt: inquiry into discontent among officers and men concerning commanding officer.

Some time since I read it but as I recall the senior TF officers in the battalion had no confidence in the CO's ability to take the battalion to war, to the extent that a number withdrew their agreement to serving overseas. Fair enough, but there was an appearance of collusion in their actions - result is that they were effectively 'broken' and the CO sent on sick leave.

That's why 1/4th Norfolks went overseas with the Adjt (Montogomerie) in command.

Montgomerie became CO 1/5 Seaforth in Aug 16 but was dismissed in Jan 17. Not a bad soldier (he went on to command 1 Norfolk), but he wasn't in sympathy with TF soldiers or his Brigadier.

Jock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...