1/4th welsh Regiment, attached to 159th Brigade, in 53rd Division

[gwyneth]

My grandfather, Thomas York landed in Suvla Bay on August 9th 1915. He was wounded and eventually spent time in hospital at Toxeth, near Liverpool. Does anyone know details of the !/4th Welsh regiment at Gallipoli? There is a mention of the 53rd Division in Sir Ian Hamilton's report, tho' he refers to it as a Hereford Regiment.(they attacked between Hetman Char and Kaslar Char

[little bob]

The War Diary for 53rd Division , 158th infantry Brigade, is available to download from The National Archives at £3.50p ref wo95/4323. However the 1/4th Welsh Regiment Diary which is in the collection only covers the period 11/11/1915 untill 3/1/1916. Not much help I'm afraid.

Bob

[Guest]

1333240535[/url]' post='1733488']

My grandfather, Thomas York landed in Suvla Bay on August 9th 1915. He was wounded and eventually spent time in hospital at Toxeth, near Liverpool. Does anyone know details of the !/4th Welsh regiment at Gallipoli? There is a mention of the 53rd Division in Sir Ian Hamilton's report, tho' he refers to it as a Hereford Regiment.(they attacked between Hetman Char and Kaslar Char

There is a re-published history of the 53rd Div. See amazon or the Naval & Military Press. MG

[Scalyback]

Ask the regimental museum at Brecon. They may have more information there.

Got some WW2 info about my grandfather, it was an obscure Welsh regiment and they come up trumps.

53 div now lives on in 53 signal Squadron in cardiff(other troop was in Brecon) and the desendants of the wireless units attahced to 53rd div in WW1.

EDIT for fat fingers.

[little bob]

There are two records on Ancestry which appear to be your grandfather. The Medal Index Card is to Lance/Sergeant Thomas Yorke. There are two service numbers, 3905 and 200758. He entered the Balkan theatre of war on 7/8/1915 and he was entitled to the 1915 Star trio. A record for a Silver War Badge under his second service number was awarded 15/2/1918. Thomas Yorke enlisted in the army on 18/3/1912.

Bob

[gwyneth]

I am new to the Forum so I hope I am replying to you all. Thank you for the information on his service record, the books available and the suggestion about Brecon. In his discharge papers (February 15, 1918) his service # was 200758, as you wrote. If he was wounded 1915/1916, he must have spent quite some time in hospital. Athan

[larney]

My grandfather, Thomas York landed in Suvla Bay on August 9th 1915. He was wounded and eventually spent time in hospital at Toxeth, near Liverpool. Does anyone know details of the !/4th Welsh regiment at Gallipoli? There is a mention of the 53rd Division in Sir Ian Hamilton's report, tho' he refers to it as a Hereford Regiment.(they attacked between Hetman Char and Kaslar Char

Your best bet would be to buy a copy of 'The History of the Welch Regiment, 1914-1918' by T.O. Marden- it's been recently republished in paperback, and is only about £15 or so.

I can send you some excerpts from it in Word format if you want to e-mail me though; just click on my Profile name to the link.

Cheers,

SteveJ.

[widavies]

Your best bet would be to buy a copy of 'The History of the Welch Regiment, 1914-1918' by T.O. Marden- it's been recently republished in paperback, and is only about £15 or so.

I can send you some excerpts from it in Word format if you want to e-mail me though; just click on my Profile name to the link.

Cheers,

SteveJ.

You Might be able to find useful references in the following link for the RWF that also took part in the Suvla Bay landings.

http://archive.org/details/regimentalrecord04dudl

Regards

Will Davies

[gwyneth]

You Might be able to find useful references in the following link for the RWF that also took part in the Suvla Bay landings.

http://archive.org/d...talrecord04dudl

Regards

Will Davies

Thank you Will. There was mention of the 4th Welsh and the 159th Brigade which was very helpful.

[widavies]

Thank you Will. There was mention of the 4th Welsh and the 159th Brigade which was very helpful.

Hi athan,

Great, I hope it was enough to point you in the right direction regarding the 4th Welsh and to get an overview of the Suvla Bay landings.

Will

[jane.beales]

My grandfather, Harold Cecil Griffiths, also landed in Suvla Bay with the 1/4th Welsh Regiment . I know that he too was injured at some point but not sure when or where though I believe that he was treated at the Cardiff Royal Infirmary. Have you been able to find information about your grandfather's injury and his stay in Toxteth or is that something that you know from him? Would appreciate any information you may have found out,

Thanks,

Swimmer

My grandfather, Thomas York landed in Suvla Bay on August 9th 1915. He was wounded and eventually spent time in hospital at Toxeth, near Liverpool. Does anyone know details of the !/4th Welsh regiment at Gallipoli? There is a mention of the 53rd Division in Sir Ian Hamilton's report, tho' he refers to it as a Hereford Regiment.(they attacked between Hetman Char and Kaslar Char

[gwyneth]

My grandfather, Harold Cecil Griffiths, also landed in Suvla Bay with the 1/4th Welsh Regiment . I know that he too was injured at some point but not sure when or where though I believe that he was treated at the Cardiff Royal Infirmary. Have you been able to find information about your grandfather's injury and his stay in Toxteth or is that something that you know from him? Would appreciate any information you may have found out,

Thanks,

Swimmer

Hi Swimmer,

I have some photos and I think some other material, postcards etc. I would be happy to share them with you when I get back home, probably in a month.

Athan

[gwyneth]

Hi Swimmer,

I have some photos and I think some other material, postcards etc. I would be happy to share them with you when I get back home, probably in a month.

Athan

Also someone posted a reply offering to e-mail me some copies of a Pembrokeshire newspaper about the 4th Welsh. That seems to have disappeared from my screen before I could reply. I certainly am interested.

Thanks,

Athan

[jane.beales]

Tha

Hi Swimmer,

I have some photos and I think some other material, postcards etc. I would be happy to share them with you when I get back home, probably in a month.

Athan

[jane.beales]

Hi Athan

Thanks that would be good, I have some photos also particularly of training camps presumably in the Camarthen area, though really not sure. Do you know where your gf enlisted?

Swimmer

[jay dubaya]

Athan,

I have a locally produced book entitled 'A Gallipoli Diary - the experiences of a Private Soldier in the 4th Battalion Welsh Regiment at Suvla Bay. August - October 1915' (Pte. Bryn Davies)

I also have several photographs of the battalion whilst in Pembrokeshire and also a number of articles taken from Pembrokeshire newspapers of the time.

Jon

[stu]

Athan,

I have a locally produced book entitled 'A Gallipoli Diary - the experiences of a Private Soldier in the 4th Battalion Welsh Regiment at Suvla Bay. August - October 1915' (Pte. Bryn Davies)

I also have several photographs of the battalion whilst in Pembrokeshire and also a number of articles taken from Pembrokeshire newspapers of the time.

Jon

Hi Jon,

I have relative, Alfred Arrowsmith 1/4th Welsh Reg, who was missing presumed killed on 10/8/15.

I was wondering, could you please tell me if your book or local newspaper articles have any info regarding movements and actions around that date, his MIC states he landed on 7/8/15, so I assume he must have landed at Suvla, but unfortunately this is all I know.

I'am very grateful for any help you can give me.

Many thanks.

Stuart

[stu]

Just bringing this to the top again, can anyone help please.

[widavies]

Just bringing this to the top again, can anyone help please.

Would this help.

53RD (WELSH) DIVISION

The Division landed at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli, between 7th and 11th August, 1915, and became a part of the larger force which landed a few days earlier.

In his despatch of 11th December, 1915, Sir Ian Hamilton describes the attempt made on the 9^th August by the 11th Division to seize hills north of Anafarta-Sagir. He remarked, "The line was later on prolonged by the remainder of the 34th Brigade and two battalions of the 159th Brigade of the 53rd Division. Their right was connected with the Chocolate Hills by the 33rd Brigade". "Some of the units which took part in this engagement acquitted themselves very bravely. I regret I have not had sufficient detail given me to mention them by name. The Divjsional Commander speaks with appreciation of one freshly landed battalion of the 53rd Division, a Hereford battalion, presumably the 1/1st Herefordshire, which attacked with impetuosity and courage.” "During the night of the 8th and 9th and early morning of the 9th the whole of the 53rd (Territorial) Division (my general reserve) had arrived and disembarked . . . .

I had ordered it up to SuvIa." "The infantry brigades of the 53rd Division (no artillery had accompanied it from England) reinforced the 11th Division."

The next paragraph shows that the 53rd Division took part in another attack on the 10th which failed. "Many of the battalions fought with great gallantry and were led forward with much devotion by their officers." The 53rd Division along with the 54th were engaged on the 21st August, the" Battle of Scimitar Hill." They were to hold the enemy while the 29th and 11th Divisions attacked. The attack was not successful.

The troops at Suvla were evacuated in December 1915, the operation being successfully completed on the night of 19th-20th December.

Will

[widavies]

Hi Jon,

I have relative, Alfred Arrowsmith 1/4th Welsh Reg, who was missing presumed killed on 10/8/15.

I was wondering, could you please tell me if your book or local newspaper articles have any info regarding movements and actions around that date, his MIC states he landed on 7/8/15, so I assume he must have landed at Suvla, but unfortunately this is all I know.

I'am very grateful for any help you can give me.

Many thanks.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

See the report on the action from Regimantal records:

The attack of the 53rd Division at Suvla, launched under the most unfavourable circumstances, did nothing to influence events on the important heights of Sari Bair. The commander of the i6oth Brigade sat on the beach with no troops, his battalions having been scattered in all directions,. so that General Lindley had only two brigades at his disposal. The 159^th Brigade had also been sent up to the fighting line by battahons, but as all of them were in the neighbourhood of Sulajik it appeared possible for this brigade to organise a short preliminary advance to the foot of the ridge. The 158th Brigade, to which our three Territorial battalions belonged, had lost the Herefordshire, but had the 2/10th Middlesex attached: the brigade was to pass through the 159th and carry out the main attack.

The 5th, 6th, and 7th Battalions.

Our three Territorial battalions had disembarked on C Beach early in the morning of the 9th, and remained there throughout the day (Lala Baba). Orders for attack were issued that evening. The 159th Brigade would commence the advance at 6 a.m.

From the beach on which our battalions were bivouacked there was very little movement, and no opportunity of seeing the country in front. One company of the 5th Battalion carried spades to the front line, but that was at dusk, and little was seen.

Verbal orders seem to have been given by the Brigadier-General, and so we find a contradiction in the order of battle. The 5th Battalion believed that they were to be in the centre with the 7th on their right and the 6th on their left ; the 7th Battalion believed they were centre, with the 5^th on their right. At all events, the 5th led in the approach march.

Apparently a warning order only was issued on the night of the 9th. Reveille was at 3.30 a.m., when the men had hot tea. At 4 a.m. details of the attack were learned.

At 6 a.m. the 159th Brigade commenced to advance. It is impossible to give positions with any degree of accuracy; reports are vague and confused. The line of advance was over a flat country covered with scrub, stunted trees, and hedges, and officers were unable to locate themselves (or the enemy) on the maps supplied. To add to these difficulties, the 159th Brigade Staff spent the night trying to find the brigade units. " The most that could be done was to give orders to commanding officers of three battalions, who, however, were not in a position to say where their battalions were, except the 4th Welch" (Brigade Diary). Also the Staff was not in communication with the 158th Brigade Staff, whose whereabouts were unknown.

A line did advance at 6 a.m., 1 1/2 companies of the 7th Cheshire and slightly stronger elements of the 4th Cheshire and 5th Welch. It was a feeble affair, and after groping about for a while in a spiritless manner, troops stood still.

The 158th Brigade had left the beach about a quarter to five, our 5^th Battalion leading. They headed across the bed of the dried Salt Lake, and soon found themselves in sticky mud, in some places six inches deep. Half-way across the Lake the battalion opened out into artillery formation under shrapnel fire, which caused a few casualties. Some 200 yards beyond the Salt Lake unaimed rifle fire was encountered, and the battalion deployed.

Kenneth Taylor, of the 5th Battalion, says: " The hill, or rather ridge, in front of us had a gradual rise at first, which was covered with trees, hedges, bushes, and oak scrub about waist-high. It was practically impossible to keep any sort of formation or keep touch, and we were soon split up and rather disorganised." All battalions met with the same experience, and their accounts of the action suffer accordingly in accuracy; they gave what they believed to be true, and what seemed to them to be happening during their advance over an unknown country.

Lieutenant-Colonel Jelf Reveley, commanding the 7th Battalion, says : " It was apparently not known that the 159th Brigade had had to retire on the right, so that we were surprised at coming under rifle fire directly we reached the east side of Salt Lake, which we crossed under shrapnel fire from the hills in front. Under the shrapnel fire the battalion was opened out into artillery formation, remained very steady, and suffered few casualties, the shrapnel appearing to burst too high up. The heavy rifle fire from the direction of Hill 50 drew our line, which was now extended in that direction, resulting in the swing to the right taking place too soon, so that our whole line was too much to the right—the 6th Royal Welch Fusiliers, who should have been on my left, being on my right. Messages were sent to the various companies of my battalion to work across more to the left, and by the early afternoon they were facing south-east on a line running north-east from Sulajik."

The 5th Battalion state that they passed through troops of the 159^th Brigade, who were mostly entrenched behind hedges, and that at about 11.30 a.m. " fire was opened " ; they were then some 200 yards from the position held by the enemy. The leading line was reinforced by successive lines, and by a company of the 6th Battalion. Lieutenant-Colonel B. E. Philips (5th) was joined by Lieutenant-Colonel T. W. Jones (6th), and an assault was ordered.

The best account comes from Kenneth Taylor. After passing over troops of the 159th Brigade : " The situation became a little less obscure, as we could now see the ridge in front of us, and knew where the fire was coming from. The ridge must have been 150 to 200 yards away from us. About 50 yards away was a bank, and after that was all oak scrub.

" We started off again in waves with big intervals, and the first 50 yards was a hell-for-leather race, no cover and every chance of striking eternity. That 50 yards accounted for a good many, and my only recollection of it is the splendid way the men behaved. We arrived at the bank and had another breather. . . .

"I was out of touch now with anyone on my left, although I tried hard to find them. Shortly the order came down to fix bayonets and get ready to charge. I believe our own Colonel and Colonel Jones, of the 6^th Battalion, were together at this time, about 100 yards on my right, and soon the order came to charge. The density of the oak scrub absolutely ruined all chance of a decent charge, as we had to follow goat-tracks and water-courses in single file to get through. Either the Turk could not see us or he was preparing to retire, as few bullets came over, and we had little difficulty in getting to the top, and to my immediate front everything was quiet. But being split up into small parties by the scrub caused more confusion, because so many parts of the line were out of touch, and it became impossible to tell how things were going on in other spots.

"After a while, I have no idea how long, everything seemed quiet, except on the right. Soon we saw a retirement taking place on the right, and it gradually crept closer to where we were."

We must now turn to Lieutenant-Colonel Reveley's account of what seemed to him to be happening on the right. "In the early afternoon heavy casualties were experienced when my men were just coming up to the leading (?) trenches owing to the retirement from them of troops of another brigade, who carried my men with them for a short distance. The retirement was checked and the advance was resumed."

An officer sent by Taylor to find out what was happening returned with the information that a retirement had been ordered. It is more probable that the 7th Battalion drew the whole line back with them. Lieutenant-Colonel Philips, leading his battalion, had been killed on the top of the ridge, and the same confusion existed there as on the immediate front of Kenneth Taylor.

The times mentioned by officers are vague; no doubt minutes seemed hours. All this must have taken place before midday. At 1 p.m. the Corps Commander ordered a second attack to take place at 5 p.m.

"At 5 p.m. the leading line was still about 400 yards short of the ground on which we were to relieve the 159th Brigade, so a general advance was ordered at that hour. This was carried a short distance, but failed to get through to the required ground, casualties again being very heavy " (Reveley).

Kenneth Taylor, who dropped back with his company to the entrenched troops he had passed over, writes of them as the 16oth Brigade, and never mentions the 159th Brigade. "I remember the kindness of a Queen's officer giving us a drink "—and this confirms Lieutenant-Colonel Reveley's statement that the whole of the 158th Brigade swung too much to the right. But all are agreed that the ridge assaulted was the first objective allotted to the 159th Brigade. By 5 p.m. the Turks were firmly established and the British advance had failed.

Will

[stu]

Hi Will,

Many thanks for the info, its very useful.

Cheers.

Stuart

[Scalyback]

As a side point the 53rd div numbering lives on in the 53rd signal Squadron based in Cardiff. Forefathers of this TA unit supported the above units in WW1 as the div signals unit. Apart from Royal Mons RE(also TA) no other direct units survive to this day in Wales.

[ChrisH53]

I know this thread is almost 8 years old but has anyone any further info on the 1/4 Welsh at Suvla? My grandfather; Henry Howells of Llandeilo, landed there around the 9th August. By the end of the month he was in hospital at Southampton suffering from Dysentery and shattered nerves, according to a newspaper report I found from 1915.

[CChodecka]

Have you searched here : https://newspapers.library.wales/ ? Is your grandfather the H. Howells mentioned in this article dated 9th September 1916 under the section "Military Medal for Llandilo Boy"   https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3978624/3978632/88/