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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

WW1 Top Gun


Moonraker

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[T]he development of aircraft alongside and as part of the whole package of photo reconnaissance, artillery observation techniques, bombing and of course the scout aircraft to protect them/interfere with them.

Aces are the very least important aspect of war in the air. The development of easily understood fighter tactics coupled with the sheer press of numbers reduced their personal effectiveness in 1918 once their admittedly inspirational 'pathfinder' role had been completed by the end of 1917. One crappy old BE2 C crew with a wireless flying on one artillery observation mission - even in early 1917 when totally obsolescent - could (and did) kill far more men in half an hour than Richthofen or Mannock ever managed in the whole war!

The Master* has summed it up in a nutshell, there. It's how the advocates of modern all-arms warfare such as Haig viewed the integral role of military aviation. As von Richthofen himself put it, "Often a photographic plate is more important than shooting down an enemy machine."

Water Carrier George

* For once I do not use the term in a spirit of post-modern irony in reference to Pete.

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Sue's first reaction - "I've never seen Pete's hair so tidy!"

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I quite enjoyed the programme. I too noticed Pete's hair and also his posh TV voice :lol:

Roger

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Pete and posh in the same sentence?

Now I am going to have to watch it!

Bruce

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Regarding the above J.R., you and I should have a chat about what you've written – in around 30 years time – when you've studied and written about the first air war for as long as I have.

I do apologise if I caused any offence, it was not my intent. I just assumed from the previous posts made about what it was likely to be not so brilliant, as some channel 5 documentary's are. Thats not to say that those who, as academics and experts, contribute to things like this are silly or bad, but the program itself. I remember watching a show that included Richard Overy, of whom I hold in very high esteem, and his parts were, as usual, very good. The rest of the show was absolute drivel.

And I did not mean to suggest I am an 'expert' in this field. I am merely researching cultural, literary and historical representations of the airman as a heroic figure during and after the war - i thought if this program, as some had said beforehand, was a dud and going to be sloppy, sensationalist or whatever I thought it would be useful as something to take into account with my research. I guess I was wrong - all I had to go on in relation to this program was a a no doubt hastily written and simplified blurb in the TV magazine.

Once again, sincere apologies if I came across as big-headed and/or arrogant. I won't pass judgement so easily next time on a documentary.

Regards,

Jon

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I found this programme absolutely fascinating. All of it. I've learned a lot about an aspect of the war that I hadn't read very much about and now intend to read more on the subject of the war in the air (stayed not far from Wavans recenty and visited the cemetery where James McCudden VC is buried and this alone made me interested enough to want to watch the programme)

Each to their own and a lot of the negative comments here have gone right over my head, but I do wish that people would watch a programme before making judgemental comments about it.

I'm neither a military historian, nor an expert, just an interested spectator

Caryl

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Although the overall documentary tended towards the simplistic, I can forgive anything when one gets to see two BE2s (the 'c' and the 'f') flying together. I have always considered the BE2 the under represented cousin of Great War aviation despite its immense importance to the RFC for over half the war.

Cheer ho

John.

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I too noticed Pete's hair and also his posh TV voice :lol:

Roger

Me too...... and for someone who wasn't sure whether any of his contribution would be in the final programme, he was never off it !!!

More importantly, I did enjoy it and thought Pete and Trevor's contribution very measured in counter-balance to the "top-gun" hype. As Trevor alerted us to, the reconstructions were superb, much better than having to rely on CGI.

One final question: what is a tactical historian ? is it like a tactical voter ? Does it make George a strategic historian ?

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OK....so I watched it.....and enjoyed it.

The contributions of our two Forum pals ensured balance, and insights which put the gung-ho guys into perspective.

The flying sequences were interesting, and there were even some of the b&w stills with which I wasn't familiar.

There were a few of them that annoyed....like a renault tank on the Somme, but otherwise, was the programme aimed at us anoraks? We can pick a few holes, but it was such that the general viewer could watch and enjoy it.

A worthy effort.

Bruce

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Not sure I have much hair to notice? I aspire to the perfect cranium nudity besported by the young master Bryn Hammond!

Pete

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An example I am also emulating!

Bruce

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I too enjoyed it, glad I didn't listed to "the experts" who told us all not to bother watching it !

And fully endores Carly suggestion, that people watch first and then criticise later

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I enjoyed it, but when they are using the laser tag rifles they had the wrong magazine capacity for the SMLE, should have been 10 instead of the 5 they had. I didn't entirely agree with the Webley comments either. Though hats off to the company that is making the replicas they looked superb.

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The aircraft made it for me and the story was almost subsidiary to these superb machines. The only time that I saw a flying replica Eindecker in the UK is below, mind you there may be others.

Norman

4213144358_60761eb59a_z.jpg

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I too enjoyed it, glad I didn't listed to "the experts" who told us all not to bother watching it !

And fully endores Carly suggestion, that people watch first and then criticise later

Hi Grantowi,

When you're in a programme originally meant to be based on your books and in which you take part, which has already twisted and turned miles away from the original concept; when in addition - contrary to promises - you are not allowed to see the final script; and when finally to your horror you see it advertised on TV as 'Top Gun A***' then you too might become very worried and a perhaps little too defensive in advance of the first showing. I didn't watch it but I understand it was OK - a bit dumbed down - but with nice film of airyplonks and a star turn by our very own Trevor Henshaw! So I will certainly try to watch it on the Channel Five download-thingy.

Pete

P.S. I entirely understand your desperate need to indulge in cheap point-scoring during one of my rare moments of vulnerability and I apologise unreservedly for having given you a bum steer!

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Agreed Hart's hair and posh accent were the stars, but all round not the disaster I anticipated or had been led to believ. The aircraft were the stars, a shame the Bristfits, despite, lots of flying shots, was not included in the analysis. I've been fond of them since I built the Airfix kit.t. Overall it was about the splendid replicas and I enjoyed that before watching two episodes of NCIS back to back. What am I like?

Regards

David

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As to the 'posh' voice: my esteemed IWM work colleague says my TV voice is not 'posh' - it's just not the rambling, incoherent semi-Tourettes whining blather that he's used to!

Pete

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it's just not the rambling, incoherent semi-Tourettes whining blather that he's used to!

So I said to Mrs H. "That's Pete Hart. I've met him, you know".

She says "Is that the bloke who did the air war talk at Stockport WFA with his arms out-stretched going "dagga, dagga, dagga" ?

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So in June I can look forward to a whole week of,

"rambling, incoherent, semi-Tourettes, whining blather"?

What joy!

Bruce

("I can hardly wait. Will we also get to see the dagga, dagga, dagga?" Ayesha)

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You can lead a CAMEL to water, but you can't make it drink, drink, drink, drink, drink.

SE 5 times.

Maybe the "dagga" bit will hang like an ALBATROSS about his neck?

Bruce

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It was good, that was the opinion from my wife. Who rarely watches stuff like this so it must have been good. I really enjoyed it as well.

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