Scottish losses

[truthergw]

This argument must be one of the daftest ever.

Edit.

Can't think why the Scots you met didn't hail you with an excess of joy every time they saw you. As to Scotland being a country, It is clearly delineated on most maps, has its own legislation, NHS and parliament with a degree of devolved govenment. I think it is a reasonable assumption.

[healdav]

Can't think why the Scots you met didn't hail you with an excess of joy every time they saw you. As to Scotland being a country, It is clearly delineated on most maps, has its own legislation, NHS and parliament with a degree of devolved govenment. I think it is a reasonable assumption.

That is still not a definition of "Scottish". Anyway, counties are defined on maps as are cities. So, what. I was born in Liverpool and have lived in Gibraltar, Plymouth, Helensburgh, Bath and have lived much more than half my life in Luxembourg and will probably live the rest here. I come from Europe.

I know people who are real Scots who have fled the "country" to get away from all this nonsense. Not to mention the rabid Scots nationalist Sean Connery who makes sure that he lives in Spain.

What was it they used to say about the Welsh? 1 million living there and 8 million around the world singing about it.

I still maintain that trying to say how many Scots died is pointless.

[John_Hartley]

I still maintain that trying to say how many Scots died is pointless.

I havnt been back to this thread since my contribution at post #2. Good to see that, 50 posts later, we are still on the same hymn sheet and, in between, nothing but statistics which, while making individual posters' cases, fail to validate the OP.

[Lachlan]

You could always toss in another grenade about how many Scots who died were Highlanders ?

As well as how Highland were Highland regiments ?

[hazelclark]

I am glad someone is finally taking the michael on this one. Some leaven (sp?) is definately required!

H.C.

You could always toss in another grenade about how many Scots who died were Highlanders ?

As well as how Highland were Highland regiments ?

[Murrough]

In any case, I have come across Irishmen who KNOW that ALL the casualties in the "English" army in WW1 came from Ireland. One bloke even told me that it would have been a good thing for Ireland if Hitler had won WW2. "He would have known how to sort out the Irish problem". Said I, "Sure, one good concentration camp and a set of gas chambers, and problem solved". He wouldn't believe that he would have done that to the Irish. Go figure.

Ah,more anecdotal observations attributed to the " Irishmen" you encounter, bejayus shure it must be true then, even if it is irrelevant to this thread.

[Lachlan]

That is still not a definition of "Scottish". I know Scottish-orientated websites where they have the same problem. Anyway, counties are defined on maps as are cities. So, what. Indeed - why mention your last statement ?I was born in Liverpool and have lived in Gibraltar, Plymouth, Helensburgh, Bath and have lived much more than half my life in Luxembourg and will probably live the rest here. I come from Europe. As you say above - so what ? I'm Scottish first, then British. I don't come from Europe. I may give up my British passport to live abroad permanently (see below) then I'll be Scottish then another passport nationality (but I think I can get dual passports).

I know people who are real Scots who have fled the "country" to get away from all this nonsense. Not to mention the rabid Scots nationalist Sean Connery who makes sure that he lives in Spain. Well, I've been away from Scotland since 1984, but it wasn't because of fleeing "nonsense". It was called job opportunities. London, Holland, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines and since 2006 - Sultanate of Oman. I don't intend to go back to Scotland or UK in general to live or work. Too damn cold for a start. When the time comes to "retire", I intend to live in the Philippines with my family and open a wee restaurant. Sir Big Sean can live where he wants. The most nationalistic Scots tend to be abroad and dress up like Xmas trees at certain times of year. Me ? I keep clear of Caledonian Societies and organised national gatherings. I like Scotland to win at football (a rarity) and I support Heart of Midlothian FC (since I was a bairn). I know who I am and that's enough for me.

What was it they used to say about the Welsh? 1 million living there and 8 million around the world singing about it. You could say the same about Irish, Scots (especially Gaels) and others. I don't know about Luxemburgers though.

I still maintain that trying to say how many Scots died is pointless. The same as how many Germans, or French or Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and Springboks ?

[bill24chev]

As someone once said there are "lies dammed lies and statistics" and statistics are only as accurate as the data they are derived from. Various contributions to this thread havesuggested different possible data sets swhich i beleive make it possible to skew any stats.

Scotland provided 20 regular battalions out of about 120 1/6th of the infantry and about the same proportion of TF and Service Bns. If Scotlands population is less than i/6th of the total UK population then common sense suggeststhat Scotland would have a higher proportion of casualties than the UK average. This assumption assumes that other arms and service are populated on a similer ratio os Scots to others, equal demographic and gender spread and the same proportion of Scots served in operational theaters as the rest of the UK.

Also comapring Scotland to the rest of UK is not comparing like with like, a truer comparison would be Scotland to a county. I suspect that other geographical areas and counties of the UK may also show a higer than ntional average of casulaties. I have not done the research but Lancashire, with 16 regular Bns., four TF Divisions that all served oversea, and a large number of Service Bns. in various divisions would have a higher than average casualty list. Ulster, admittedly, with only one division must have a high proprtion of casualties to population especially if individual small communities are assessed seperatly. There will be other examples.

WE should not, nearly 100 years after the event be squabbling or trying to score points against each other but showing repect and admiration for all those who took part in WW1 wether they were casualties or not.

This should be truefor all combatants because wether volunteer or conscript they had becsuse of morals, public poinion or consxcription no real choice but to participate.

[healdav]

Be careful how you mention Luxembourgers. In WW1 the country was overrun by its guarantors before anyone could quite believe it, so men who joined the various armies - and, yes, they were in the French, Belgian, US, British, Italian and German armies were almost all expatriate.

In WW2 they had a casualty rate of 2.1% of 1939 population died compared with the British 1.6% and the USA 0.7%.

Not to mention them shafting even the Gestapo on three occasions.

[The_Answer]

Can't help it if you want to be precious. I do not denigrate Scots or Scottish regiments, I merely challenge inflated claims and grandstanding. Particularly when the factual basis is very iffy, like the Scottish war memorial which is a disgrace. If they have to inflate themselves with such distortion then I'm happy to deliver the heaviest metaphorical boot that I can up the front or back of their kilts. Same applies to Canadians, who alo have military bignoting tendencies.

From the snwm.org site:

Surname = Bottom

Firstname = William Thomas

date of death = 14/01/1918

5 records returned for the same person, an English man born in Deptford London!

After obtaining the database I note 16,000 records are duplicates etc etc.

20,000 records place of birth England

68,000 records place of birth Scotland

Arthur E Smith is interesting!

Englishman listed twice as 'scottish' and died I kid you not in 19/02/1971.

[woundwort]

I daresay that a break-down of casualty rates from the regiments raised in England (with a much larger population, if this needs to be underlined) could show similar disparities between, say, the North East and Cornwall. Likewise, the casualty rates from Highland and Borders regiments should be different.

And that's before we get onto the matter of Scottish regiments not being exclusively Scots in make-up, and there being plenty of Scots in English regiments.

Yes, this is a claim which continues to made with all seriousness and churlishness.

Some leaven (sp?) is definately required!

We'll have none of any discussion of filioque, today of all days!

[The_Answer]

.

And that's before we get onto the matter of Scottish regiments not being exclusively Scots in make-up, and there being plenty of Scots in English regiments.

from the snwm.org database:

THE NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH)

deaths = 2,543

of which 104 born in Scotland!

Scottish cannon fodder?

[woundwort]

Scottish cannon fodder?

Progeny of those more enterprising Geordie tribes who'd emigrated north?

[The_Answer]

Progeny of those more enterprising Geordie tribes who'd emigrated north?

North to exactly where?

[woundwort]

North to exactly where?

The former territories of North and North-East Wales, aka Strathclyde and Lothian respectively. At the same time, some Irish tribes were doing similar. Of course, those canny Geordies took over that tribal name.

Who remembers the Picts, though? Or the Beaker People?

[The_Answer]

Have done some number crunching on the SNWM.ORG database I downloaded.

I found the following stats on what I presume is the largest Scottish Regiment of WW1?

THE ROYAL SCOTS (LOTHIAN REGIMENT)

12,085 records

-756 'Latterly'

11,329

-79 'duplicate' based on Surname, Firstname, Died!

11,250

Born

7,220 Scotland

1,998 Not Identified

1,772 England

178 Ireland

30 Rest of the World

19 Isle of Mann

15 USA

15 Wales

9 Austrilia + Canada + New Zealand

4 Gibralter

In contrast to % of 'scottish' death's , I note that the :

THE NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS

16,000 casualties of which place of birth Scotland (according to the SNWM.ORG)

105 Scotland.

If anybody would like a copy of the database let me know!

[The_Answer]

unedited breakdown of entire contents of downloaded snwm.org database!

12,075 . . THE ROYAL SCOTS (LOTHIAN REGIMENT)

11,380 . . THE HIGHLAND LIGHT INFANTRY

9,513 . . THE GORDON HIGHLANDERS

9,498 . . SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS

8,988 . . THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLANDERS)

8,768 . . THE SEAFORTH HIGHLANDERS

7,959 . . THE ARGYLL AND SUTHERLAND HIGHLANDERS

7,915 . . THE CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)

7,661 . . CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE

7,461 . . THE KING'S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS

6,860 . . THE ROYAL SCOTS FUSILIERS

6,440 . . THE QUEEN'S OWN CAMERON HIGHLANDERS

5,058 . . THE ROYAL NAVY

4,308 . . AUSTRALIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE

3,634 . . ROYAL HORSE AND ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY

2,906 . . SCOTS GUARDS

2,775 . . SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM IRISH REGIMENTS

2,671 . . THE NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH)

2,401 . . MACHINE GUN CORPS

2,370 . . THE ROYAL ENGINEERS

1,556 . . THE MERCANTILE MARINE

1,554 . . LONDON SCOTTISH

1,519 . . ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS

1,182 . . ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY

1,178 . . SOUTH AFRICAN SCOTTISH

1,112 . . COMMANDS AND STAFF; CAVALRY (EXCLUDING GREYS AND SCOTTISH YEOMANRY)

1,070 . . LIVERPOOL SCOTTISH

912 . . WOMAN'S SERVICES.

910 . . ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS

888 . . NEW ZEALAND EXPEDITIONARY FORCE

648 . . ROYAL FLYING CORPS.

626 . . LABOUR CORPS

585 . . THE ROYAL AIRFORCE

551 . . SCOTTISH HORSE YEOMANRY

508 . . ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY (T.F.)

482 . . LOVAT SCOUTS

380 . . THE HIGHLAND CYCLIST BATTALION

369 . . THE INDIAN ARMY.

347 . . VARIOUS CORPS.

293 . . FIFE AND FORFAR YEOMANRY

283 . . SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM WELSH REGIMENTS

229 . . THE ROYAL SCOTS GREYS (2nd DRAGOONS)

188 . . MISCELLANEOUS CYCLIST BATTALIONS

176 . . LANARKSHIRE YEOMANRY

170 . . LOTHIAN AND BORDER HORSE

135 . . AYRSHIRE YEOMANRY

68 . . QUEEN'S OWN ROYAL GLASGOW YEOMANRY

65 . . OVERSEAS UNITS

51 . . "NEW ARMIES SPECIAL AND GENERAL LISTS TERRITORIAL RESERVE FORCE

"

42 . . ARMY CHAPLAINS DEPARTMENT

1 . . UNKNOWN

148,719

[The_Answer]

SNWM.ORG! - 'Nearly 150,000?'

148,631 ... Records?

14,380 ..... Duplicates removed

134,250 . . Remaining records

14,157 ......Australian + Canadian + New Zealand and S Africa + Indian forces removed (of which 1,055 'Scottish born')

120,095 ... Remaining records

16,769 .... England born records removed

103,326 . . Remaining records

3,166 . . Ireland + Wales + Isle of Man + Channel Islands born records removed

100,159 .. Remaining records

452 .... Rest of the world born records removed

99.707 ... Remaining records

7,376 . . . Navy and Woman’s services records removed (not exactly cannon fodder) of which 1,419 identified as Scottish born

92,331 . . Remaining records

1,124 . . . Royal Air Force / Flying corps of which 275 identified as Scottish born (cannon fodder unit?), records removed

91,207 ... Remaining records

863 . . . . London (Scottish) Liverpool (Scottish) and Northumberland (Scottish) of which 525 identified as Scottish born, records removed

90,344 ... Remaining records

7,822 . . . Scottish casualties from English + Welsh + Irish regiments, of which 4,517 identified as Scottish born (cannon fodder?), removed

82,522 . . Records remaining

10,008 . . . British regiments, Artillery + Engineers + Machine Gun + Medical + Service + Labour corps (8,033 Scottish born) removed

72,514 . . Records remaining

15,981 . . . Place of birth not known ............... removed

56,446 . . . Records remaining!

[Trenchman]

Since this has been in news recently (November 2014) and is clearly something of a political hot potato given Scottish nationalism perhaps the following statistics may shed some light...

'Proportion of British Casualties - November, 1917'

England & Wales:

% of Armed Forces = 70%

% of Casualties = 76%

Scotland:

% of Armed Forces = 8%

% of Casualties = 10%

Ireland:

% of Armed Forces = 6%

% of Casualties = 6%

'Forces of the British Empire, March 1918'

England:

Total: 4,530,000

% of Forces (excluding India, Africa, etc.,) = 69.5%

% of population in Forces = 13.3%

Wales

Total: 280,000

% of Forces (excluding India, Africa, etc.,) = 4.3%

% of population in Forces = 9.8%

Scotland

Total: 620,000

% of Forces (excluding India, Africa, etc.,) = 9.6%

% of population in Forces = 13.0%

Ireland

Total: 170,000

% of Forces (excluding India, Africa, etc.,) = 2.7%

% of population in Forces = 3.8%

Statistics taken from 'Blood and Treasure. A Supplement to 'Great Britain's Achievements' (1918)

There is no a priori reason why Scotland (or Wales, Ireland, England, etc.) should have a significantly disproportionate casualty rate and therefore one should approach this (or any) 'twice as many' claim with a large degree of scepticism. One would expect to find the overall casualty and death rate to be more/less in line with the sacrifice made by other nations.

The above stats are not definitive but (and in combination with other statistical analyses on this thread and forum) they are consistent with initial expectations and the weight of evidence suggests very strongly that Scotland's sad losses were significantly no greater or smaller than that of England, Ireland or Wales.

Trenchman

[hazelclark]

I think the perception that Scottish losses were higher comes from certain battles where indeed Scottish losses were very high. e.g.Loos There were were of course other battles where the casualties were predominantly from other countries. The Welsh, the Newfoundlanders and the South Africans, not to mention those stalwart English and Australians.

Hazel

[phil andrade]

Thank Goodness for our Martin G !

His sterling ( ! ) work has exposed the monstrous distortion of Scottish death rates.

Only the belligerents whose armies were afflicted by lethal outbreaks of disease suffered mortality of that order in the Great War : Serbia and Turkey being the two principal examples.

You will find that in the earlier large scale and prolonged conflicts - and the Napoleonic Wars provide a good example - death rates among soldiers were more extreme than they were to be in the Great War. This is attributable to the ravages of disease. Actual combat death rates in the Great War were much higher, because the fighting was relentless and the power of weaponry exponentially greater. Perhaps one third of all soldiers who served in Napoleon's wars died ; the death rate for their Great War counterparts was only half that ; but death rates in actual battle were three times higher in the Great War than they had been in warfare a century earlier. This reflects the vastly reduced fatality from disease.

To accept that more than one quarter of all Scottish soldiers died in the Great War, it would imply that they were the victims of typhoid, dysentery, cholera, typhus etc on the same scale as were the soldiers of the Balkan armies....I don't think so !

Phil (PJA)

[hazelclark]

I am not disputing your calculations Martin. My point nevertheless stands that Loos had a huge impact on the Scottish psyche long before Ferguson was born. The 15th Scottish Division for instance had arrived on the Western front only a couple of months prior to the battle. It largely consisted of the first big rush of Scottish volunteers. Loos was the final nail in French's coffin, and other than the Somme, is the battle most mentioned in discussing Scottish casualties. (in my own experience)

Hazel C.

[seaforths]

I have read through the pages of this with interest and it seems that the question has been raised many times: What defines Scottish?

This may or may not have some relevance and it might be worth a closer examination. In early 1979, I had, for official purposes, to have my nationality defined. I gave my nationality as Scots. This elicited a "We'll see about that" response "Where were you born?" to which I responded "Aberdeen". The response I received was that would not necessarily make me a Scot and it depended on my father's date of birth. I was then told; if your father was born in or before 1921, you are the nationality of your father and not of your country of birth. If your father was born 1922 onwards, your nationality was your country of birth. I grinned at the interviewer and told them my father was born January 1921 in Glasgow and produced his birth certificate as well as my own.

1921 was not that far removed from WW1. Now, that may have thrown a hammer in the various statistical work. I'm going to ask the question before I go hunting for the answer later this evening: Has anyone yet managed to officially define Scottish? Because if, during WW1, you were the nationality of your father, it would make it damned hard to prove Scottish losses, in fact, it would be akin to pushing custard upstairs to prove any Scottish, English, Irish or Welsh losses either.

[hazelclark]

Don't do it Marjorie!

H.

[seaforths]

Don't do it Marjorie!

H.

Well Hazel, I guess you're probably right. I should've stayed on the sidelines as an observer but it seems to me that whoever is doing the number crunching is working from their own agenda and not, I stress to skew the results one way or the other but simply because their definition of Scottish might be different from someone elses. If you go by the definitiion of being included in a memorial roll of honour or on a war memorial then residence counts. If on the other hand you are going to work from a different definition and say nationality is by birth only then it seems that going by SDGW/ODGW is used. The Scotsman published casualties of those serving in Scottish Regiments or those who were Scots by birth serving in other Regiments/Corps. If on the other hand you are going by the official definition (whatever it was at the time) to establish nationality and if it was decided by the nationality of the father, well, that would make for a different set of results. So those born in Scotland of Scots fathers would be Scots. Those born in Scotland of English/Irish/Welsh fathers would be excluded but then those born in England/Wales/Ireland with Scots fathers would also be deemed Scots. Easier then to accept a different and easier definition of nationality but wait...

Nationality across the different number crunching strategies might be a non-variable within the research strategy used but it seems to be variable depending who is researching and how they are doing it. I haven't found anything that confirms or refutes my earlier post but in official terms unless their nationality is fully established according to the nationality criteria in place at that time, it's just one persons take as they researched it and see it and nothing more than that.

In the end they all bled and died on the same battlefields whatever their nationality. Is it a necessity to attempt segregate them now? My take is that the communities will have mourned their losses whether they were born there or not. I realise that statistics are a fascination for some people but call me a pessimist, this is one issue that won't be settled.