WW1 medals withdrawn for misconduct?

[kellysgirl]

Does any kind soul know exactly when WW1 medals were issued to the recipients?

Someone I am researching was, according to his medal card, awarded the usual 'pip, squeak & wilfred' following his service in the 3rd Cavalry division, spent mostly in the trenches, until severely wounded on the Somme. After the war, he got into a spot of bother, and was court martialed for murder in April 1921 and subsequently hanged. I understand his medals were cancelled, but I am unsure as to whether they would have been issued to him by the time of the court martial, in which case somebody would have had to call on his soon-to-be widow and demand their return, or, if they were not generally issued until after April 1921, then it would simply have been a case of not issuing his medals. There is no annotation regarding this on the medal card and.

[ss002d6252]

What details do you have on him?

[kellysgirl]

What details do you have on him?

I just tried to upload an image of the medal card from Flikr, but I don't think it's worked. On the card, it lists the medals with the following annotations:- Victory: roll: cc/101 B4 page:171; British: ditto; 15 star: roll: cc/3B40 . Then next to this it reads: 'Dis 392 (XV1A) 12.14.19' which is the reference also written on his medical discharge papers after his wounding. His name was William Mitchell.

[mmm45]

If theres no annotation on MIC that medals were forfeited then I think you will need to(or get someone to) consult the actual Roll Books at Kew and see whats on them.

Star was issued first in 1919-20 then BWM and Victory in the 20s so its possible he had been sent them before his run in with law.

He was also issued SWB so must have been Civvie court not Court Martial as he was discharged in 1919.

Ady

[kellysgirl]

If theres no annotation on MIC that medals were forfeited then I think you will need to(or get someone to) consult the actual Roll Books at Kew and see whats on them.

Star was issued first in 1919-20 then BWM and Victory in the 20s so its possible he had been sent them before his run in with law.

He was also issued SWB so must have been Civvie court not Court Martial as he was discharged in 1919.

Ady

Many thanks mmm45. I thought the enquiry might lead me back to Kew. I had expected there to be some sort of annotation on the card to show the medals were cancelled, as I understand this was automatic when a former soldier was convicted of an offence, and especially when court martialed and executed. It was in fact a court martial rather than civil, as it happened in Ireland at a time when martial law had been declared, during the Irish Civil War. Pardon my ignorance, but what is SWB?

[kellysgirl]

Ah, got it, silver war badge, for being wounded presumably. I'm wondering now whether the soldiers had to claim their medals, and probably Mitchell never did.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

... I'm wondering now whether the soldiers had to claim their medals, and probably Mitchell never did.

...WW1 Medals were issued automatically to Other Ranks, so I expect his where issued and as there is no annotation to suggest they where returned or disallowed I expect they were. The Medal Roll page might have such a notice attached to them,which might clarify the situation, however he may well have received them [or a member of his Family may have] and they had been disposed of after his execution in 1921..

As a matter of interest what gives you the idea the award of his war Medals was cancelled, have you documentation to support this?? It is by no means automatic that awards were cancelled due to Offences committed.

HB

[kellysgirl]

...WW1 Medals were issued automatically to Other Ranks, so I expect his where issued and as there is no annotation to suggest they where returned or disallowed I expect they were. The Medal Roll page might have such a notice attached to them,which might clarify the situation, however he may well have received them [or a member of his Family may have] and they had been disposed of after his execution in 1921..

As a matter of interest what gives you the idea the award of his war Medals was cancelled, have you documentation to support this?? It is by no means automatic that awards were cancelled due to Offences committed.

HB

Thank you for your reply Harry. I had read an article somewhere at the beginning of my research which suggested medals were always withdrawn in such a case. The man's descendants do not have the medals. Although his wife, now deceased, knew of his execution, of course, she told their then infant child daddy was killed in the course of his duty. She kept photos of her husband to hand down to the child, but not apparently the medals. I'm wondering though, if it is safe to assume, in the light of the lack of any annotation on the medal card regarding their withdrawal, that this did not happen.

The earlier reply from mmm45 says he was issued with the silver war badge, but I'm not sure if this is just an assumption, owing to his wounds, as there's no mention of the SWB on his medal card? The man's conduct during the war was abysmal, by the way, with court martials, field punishments and a year spent at Rouen prison, for being AWOL and disrespecting his NCO. Perhaps however there was a general feeling that anyone who'd been there deserved a medal regardless of their character and conduct?

[mmm45]

He was discharged under Kings Regs 392 para XV1A does the medal card mention the word "list" anywhere ?

If you can post his number Ill have a look at card easier to decypher that way

Ady

[kellysgirl]

He was discharged under Kings Regs 392 para XV1A does the medal card mention the word "list" anywhere ?

If you can post his number Ill have a look at card easier to decypher that way

Ady

Thanks Ady, his regimental no was L/7539 and the only other thing it says on the medal card was 'theatre of war served in: (1) France From: 71.5.15. He was in 16th Lancers.

[mcassell]

This is an interesting issue as there appears to be a great deal of latitude in why and what medals were forfeited and what crimes were judged sufficient to warrant forfeiture. My overall impression is that the soldier had to be actually serving to warrant forfeiture. I have an MSM awarded to Private Frederick Spalding for gallantry while serving at the MGC Base Depot in France. Spalding re-enlisted after the war but deserted and was convicted by 'the Civil Power' and discharged under KR 392 (x) on 9 July 1920. He forfeited his BWM and VM but the back of his MSM card indicates the the Army Council declared he was not to lose his MSM which was duly issued. His BWM and VM were restored in March 1939. Another oddity is 4-3532 Private Andrew Doyle of the Leinster Regiment: his MIC indicates that he forfeited his BWM and VM because he deserted from the Tank Corps but his 1914-15 Star ( he went to France to the Leinsters on 4 May 1915) still exists, and his MIC indicates this was not forfeited. The medal card to Private John Christie of the West Riding Regiment - later the serial killer of 10 Rillington Place fame - has no mention of forfeiture, though it is likely that this was not an issue so long after the Great War.

I presume that the William Mitchell we are talking about is the RIC Constable who killed a judge and was hanged in 1921. Mitchell's discharge due to wounds would indicate he was not 'eligible' for forfeiture and if the MIC does not mention this I would suggest he never lost his medals. A large proportion of 'Black and Tans' were still in the B or D Reserve and hence would be liable to forfeiture if convicted though I would offer that if medals were already issued there was little the government could do to retrieve them.

BTW, I was under the impression that George VI was responsible for restoration of forfeited medals in the late 1930s (cf Spalding above) but does anyone have anything definitive??

[kellysgirl]

This is an interesting issue as there appears to be a great deal of latitude in why and what medals were forfeited and what crimes were judged sufficient to warrant forfeiture. My overall impression is that the soldier had to be actually serving to warrant forfeiture. I have an MSM awarded to Private Frederick Spalding for gallantry while serving at the MGC Base Depot in France. Spalding re-enlisted after the war but deserted and was convicted by 'the Civil Power' and discharged under KR 392 (x) on 9 July 1920. He forfeited his BWM and VM but the back of his MSM card indicates the the Army Council declared he was not to lose his MSM which was duly issued. His BWM and VM were restored in March 1939. Another oddity is 4-3532 Private Andrew Doyle of the Leinster Regiment: his MIC indicates that he forfeited his BWM and VM because he deserted from the Tank Corps but his 1914-15 Star ( he went to France to the Leinsters on 4 May 1915) still exists, and his MIC indicates this was not forfeited. The medal card to Private John Christie of the West Riding Regiment - later the serial killer of 10 Rillington Place fame - has no mention of forfeiture, though it is likely that this was not an issue so long after the Great War.

I presume that the William Mitchell we are talking about is the RIC Constable who killed a judge and was hanged in 1921. Mitchell's discharge due to wounds would indicate he was not 'eligible' for forfeiture and if the MIC does not mention this I would suggest he never lost his medals. A large proportion of 'Black and Tans' were still in the B or D Reserve and hence would be liable to forfeiture if convicted though I would offer that if medals were already issued there was little the government could do to retrieve them.

BTW, I was under the impression that George VI was responsible for restoration of forfeited medals in the late 1930s (cf Spalding above) but does anyone have anything definitive??

Thank you for this Gunner Parr. I'm thinking it is perhaps safe to assume, in the absence of any annotation on the MIC, that his medals were not forfeited. I cannot imagine anyone approaching his destitute widow and month old baby to demand their return.

[mmm45]

As you say on MIC discharged 1919 unfit but no mention of SWB and cant see him on SWB rolls

Ady