H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Hi ,I have done alot of reseach on my grandad,Ernest Albert Proctor,Private 1673,19th Hussars.He enlisted at Ipswich in 1907 for 7years and 5years reserve.He was awarded the 1914 star and bar.This photograph has always puzzled me.(private Proctor is lying,left) I have no idea when or where it was taken and it is of mixed regiments.I think I have identified 10th and 11th Hussars, 5th Dragoon,Life Guards? and the flag bearer to the right would appear to have a harp on his collar.. Irish? I would appreciate any help confirming ID of regiments or any ideas about the photograph...As added information..his daughters seemed to think he was a batman/valet? The only person he ever spoke of after the war was Major Croshaw.He kept a newspaper clipping of him...he also had a 'studio' photograph of William Torquil Mcleod Bolitho.When he left the army a captain/officer? found him a job as a chauffeur/groom at Ullesthorpe House with John Hugh Ward Boughton-Leigh.(Major in the service of the 4th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire).When Boughton-Leigh died in 1924 the new owners of Ullesthorpe House,the Seales, continued grandads employment as chauffeur/groom.It was here that his experience was called upon when Alfred J Munnings arrived to paint ''A Boy and his Pony'' ....but thats another story entirely!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 The 8th (King`s Royal Irish) Hussars have an " angel" harp badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Picture of 8th (King`s Royal Irish) Hussars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Post 1 - the chap with the helmet with the number 5 is from the 5th Dragoon Guards. Post 2, the first photo is 11th Hussars (Prince Albert's Own) , and the third is possibly the 3rd Dragoon Guards. They were also a Prince of Wales's regiment, and he seems to have a helmet rather than a busby, and isn't wearing hussar-style frogging. Obviously the main photo has a lancer either side, of different regiments (the left hand might be the 16th, but I'm not sure. The ones with plumed helmets are all Dragoon Guards or Dragoons of some sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Photo of 11th (Prince Albert`s Own) Hussars and !0th (Prince of Wales`s Own Royal) Hussars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Oh, if the flag-bearer (Lancer as we call them in the trade ) has a harp collar dog, then he's 5th Royal Irish Lancers. Out of interest, the only Dragoon regiments were the 1st (Royal Dragoons), 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) and 6th Inniskilling Dragoons. Dragoon Guards were different, and numbered 1 to 7. The Dragoons numbered in a system with Hussars (3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 18th, 19th and 20th) and Lancers (5th, 9th, 12th, 16th, 17th and 21st) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Thankyou all for your interest and replies,most helpful.Any ideas on why its a group of mixed regiments? I've attached a close up (the best I can get) of the Lancer(I'm still learning ) on the right.looks like an angel harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 What a superb photograph Nellie, I would surmise that it was taken either, at the Equitation school at Netheravon (Wilts) that was opened in 1904 (with an indoor riding school constructed in 1908 that still stands), or at the Cavalry Depot in Canterbury, where all regiments completed their basic training until 1909, at which point the regiments were divided amongst the six commands, with a cavalry training depot at each. At the same time the regiments were paired in order to emulate the then infantry system (since 1881) of having one unit at 'Home' and providing training and drafts of men for the other serving 'Overseas'. The six commands were: 1. Southern - Bristol 2. Northern - Scarborough 3. Eastern - Woolwich 4. Western - Liverpool 5. Scottish - Edinburgh 6. Irish - Dublin The 19th Hussars were paired with the 15th Hussars and trained at the Northern Command Depot alongside the 14th and 20th Hussars, who were also paired. After WW1 and the decline in importance of horsed cavalry the system reverted to a single depot arrangement and was once again based at Canterbury in 1923. Your grandfather might well have been the batman (officially called servant) of an officer on the permanent staff at either, Netheravon or Canterbury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 that makes sense. I know he was at Aldershot in 1911 (census) and was married at Aldershot,1912 so from 1907 till then I've never had a lead,Thanks for all this info,folks thought it a little remiss of me not to post this photograph up of grandad..just for your interest ps if anyone recognises the barracks I would love to know (OK thats maybe a bit of a long shot!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Nellie, I'm in Newcastle on Friday (collecting daughter from University), and if I get there in time I intend a quick visit to the 15th/19th Hussars Museum. If I manage it, I'll have a look to see if there are any clues to the location of the 19th in the period in question. I do wonder (others could tell for sure): is that a pre-1908 sabre he's carrying in the last picture? If so that might help date the picture slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 That would be wonderful,its a place I would love to visit.Any information is a bonus for me.Many thanks for the offer.I'm not sure about the sword,It could indeed have been the old style sword.ie before 1908.I couldn't be sure.That had occurred to me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Can you do a similar close-up to post 8 for the left-hand lancer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Might not be of any use but I do know the 19th Hussars were in Hounslow in 1913. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 all info is welcome...thanks. My next endeavour(many pending) is to try and find out which division he was in (got to be the 4th or 5th) and their movements and transport overseas.For some reason some of his daughters thought he travelled to Scotland at some point ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 The 19th Hussars were Divisional Cavalry for the 4th (B Squadron), 5th (A Squadron) and 6th (C Squadron) Divisions. They concentrated as a regiment in the 9th brigade (1st Cavalry Division) late in 1914/early 15 (with the 15th Hussars and a Yeomanry regiment I forget). You might track it down by his entry into theatre: the 6th Division arrived in September, so a September entry date might help. I suspect also that the 4th and 5th arrived on different dates in August, so there again you might be lucky. sadly, the 19th produced no history (boo, hiss, swizz) so no joy from that source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 If I've read his discharge letter and medal roll correctly,I'd say grandad was in B squadron and therefore in the 4th cavalry divison ...what do you think? sorry its only half the document ,I couldn't get the whole doc. to below the 100kb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Date of entry, 23rd August,1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 that makes sense. I know he was at Aldershot in 1911 (census) and was married at Aldershot,1912 so from 1907 till then I've never had a lead,Thanks for all this info,folks thought it a little remiss of me not to post this photograph up of grandad..just for your interest ps if anyone recognises the barracks I would love to know (OK thats maybe a bit of a long shot!) This shows the deployments (stations) of the regiment during the period in question: 1902 19th (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars 1903 Ireland: Curragh 1908 England: Norwich 1910 Aldershot 1912 Hounslow 1914.08 France and Flanders split into squadrons as divisional cavalry 1915.04 France and Flanders 9 Cav Bde, 1 Cav Div, BEF 1919 India-Muttra The regiment saw action at the Second Battle of Ypres, gaining battle honours for the Battle of St Julien and the Battle of Frezenberg. In 1916, the 19th fought at the Battle of Flers-Courcelette, part of the Battle of the Somme. In 1917 it served at the Battle of Cambrai, and in 1918 at the Battle of Amiens and the Pursuit to Mons. The regiment was retitled 19th Royal Hussars (Queen Alexandra's Own) in 1921 and shortly thereafter disbanded as part of the post-War reduction in forces. A cadre was briefly resurrected in 1922 in order to amalgamate with the 15th The King's Hussars, to form the 15th/19th Hussars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Looks very much like 21st Lancers to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Nellie, I'm in Newcastle on Friday (collecting daughter from University), and if I get there in time I intend a quick visit to the 15th/19th Hussars Museum. If I manage it, I'll have a look to see if there are any clues to the location of the 19th in the period in question. I do wonder (others could tell for sure): is that a pre-1908 sabre he's carrying in the last picture? If so that might help date the picture slightly. Yes he is bearing the pre 1908 sabre, the last curved one to be issued before the straight (sticking as opposed to slashing) sabre of 1908. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.Douglas Posted 14 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Thanks for this information guys.It really is helpful to me,both as new info and confirming what I had researched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Thanks for this information guys.It really is helpful to me,both as new info and confirming what I had researched. I think that the barracks is quite probably Cavalry Barracks (later renamed Nelson Barracks) Norwich and the view is the rear of (one of) the 3-storey barrack blocks. He would have gone there to join his regiment immediately after completing basic training at Canterbury. I can send you 3 photos of the barracks by email if you would like. The right hand of the two elephant badges enclosed shows the badge that he wore during that period (the regiment had originally been part of the Honorable East India Company's European Cavalry). It was not an attractive badge and led to a lot of ribbing so that by WW1 the badge had changed to a representation of Princess (later Queen) Alexandra's Danish (Dannebrog) Cypher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 And here is his uniform in colour. Notice the collar badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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