The Roosters' Concert Party

[Dean Williams]

Hello All,

I'm currently researching the Roosters' Concert Party of 60th Division and their long continuous service of over 30 years as entertainers with several original members.

For an entertainment troupe that continued non-stop for over 30 years there is sadly very little available information on Teh Roosters online or in books.

Whilst I've been able to pin down some of the basics of the party's formation and compile a complete list of radio broadcasts between October 1923 and September 1946, and another smaller list of their public appearances and theatre shows between 1919 and 1947, a list of many of their routines and sketches, songs and jokes, and reviews of same, the death of a member in 1931, the car accident that nearly killed 4 of it's members in 1932 and several other interesting facts and details, I am a bit hazy on some points that I would like to crack regarding the Wartime service of the members.

Kate Wills seems in particular appears to be the concert party expert here so I'd very much appreciate any help from Kate, or anyone else, on a few points and/or any general knowledge on the eary years of the concert party.

In particular I'm particularly keen to pinpoint when George Western (later of The Western Brothers) joined the concert party. I had thought when starting my research that he was only a member from 1923 when they started BBC broadcasting but I have found evidence that he was in the concert party during the war doing a double-act with Gordon Marsh. From what I have been able to uncover Gordon joined the concert party at Alexandria in Nov 1918 and left the party in 1919 when they were demobilised to form his own concert party. So for him to have done a double-act with George Western during The Roosters would mean that George was in the Roosters from at least Nov 1918 and yet he doesn't appear to get a mention as a founding member in March 1917 or as a member in any of the early concerts. Is any one aware exactly when George Western joined the Roosters between March 1917 and Nov 1918? Or have any other information on George Western's War service?

I'd also like to know if there are any surviving photos of The Roosters from the war years?

Thanks in advance for any information on the concert party, or if someone can point me in the right direction for finding it.

Regards,

Dean

[pioneecorps]

Hi Dean

Not much to go on, I know, there were 17 soldiers with the name George Western, in MIC, "The National Archives", good luck Mate.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[Dean Williams]

Thanks Gerwyn,

I would assume (possibly incorrectly?) that our George Western would have be in the 60th Division, to be in it's Concert Party? Which would narrow it down. But both his first and last name are fairly common though so it's going to be a long search I think!

Regards,

Dean

[Dean Williams]

Might help, of course, if I also remember his first name is actually Ernest, although he preferred to use his middle name George Western. I have an Ernest G Western on the MIC list as a member of the London Regiment as per The Roosters which looks good so I shall investigate that further.

Any information on the early years of the Roosters still very much aprpeciated.

Regards,

Dean

[Charles Fair]

Kate is your woman on this one... 60 Div is one of my interests, though I havent looked into the concert parties so far. The 3/19th Londons recruited c. 100 men from the theatrical profession in early 1915. I have an incomplete list of names. Some of these men ended up in the 2/19th Londons who were in 60 Div. I wonder if any of them ended up in the Roosters?

Charles

[Dean Williams]

Kate is your woman on this one... 60 Div is one of my interests, though I havent looked into the concert parties so far. The 3/19th Londons recruited c. 100 men from the theatrical profession in early 1915. I have an incomplete list of names. Some of these men ended up in the 2/19th Londons who were in 60 Div. I wonder if any of them ended up in the Roosters?

Charles

Hello Charles,

The Roosters from formation incuded Privates Percy H. Merriman and William McClellan (known as William Mack) and Sergeant Arthur R Mackness. These three main members would stay from formation in March 1917 until 1947.

Others in the army Roosters were;

Rifleman Stanley T. Davis (another founding member who left at the end of the war)

Ernest George Western (I believe joining somewhere between 1917 and Nov. 1918)

Second Lieutenant H.H. Warren (in it from 1917, possibly from formation in March)

Pvt. W.F. Copping (again in it from 1917, possibly from formation in March)

Company Quarter Master Sergeant F.R.C. Barton (in it from 1917, possibly from formation in March)

Sergeant F.E. Weldon (in it from 1917, possibly from formation in March)

Private W.H. Harrison (worked as Charles Harrison, despite his initials)

Frederick Pain (not sure of rank yet, joined sometime late 1917/early 1918)

Do any of those names match your list of 100 theatricals? There were 18 members in the Roosters from formation, oterhs left fairly quickly and there were some changes of personnel. Also I doubt all of them had professional theatrical careers before the war, several at least would simply have been drawn to it whilst in the army, or merely amateaur before the war.

Regards,

Dean

[Dean Williams]

I've tracked down the correct (Ernest) George Western from the MIC;

Ernest G Western 16/London Regiment Private 2163 550377

MEDALS: Victory, British, 15 Star

THEATRE OF WAR FIRST SERVED IN: (1) France

DAY OF ENTRY THEREIN: 7/11/15

But I'm still more interested in when exactly he joined The Roosters.

Regards,

Dean

[Kate Wills]

Hello Dean,

Welcome to the Forum. Pardon my absence.

George Western had certainly joined The Roosters by Christmas 1917, as he accompanied The Roosters own version of the pantomime Cinderella as pianist. Their production seems to have been performed between Christmas 1917 and February 1918 in Jerusalem.

Western succeeded / replaced Company QuarterMaster Sgt FRC Barton as Roosters pianist. Later Western was credited as 'George' and pianist (each member of the party took a named role in their shows; for instance Merriman was 'Claude') so it is quite likely he performed a duet with Marsh.

The list of company members I have compiled for The Roosters is:

Barton, CQMS FRC (piano)

Copping, Pte WF (Billy)

Davis, Rfm SW (Freddy)

Harrison, Pte WH (Charlie)

Hill, L/Cpl Thomas (SM)

Keenan, L/Cpl J (ASM)

Lawrence, Pte RA (box office)

Mackness, Rfm AE (Cyril)

Marsh, Sgt Gordon (aka Jack)

McClellan, Pte W aka Billy Mack (Elsie & producer)

Merriman, Pte Percy H (Claude)

Pain, Pte Frederick

Roose, Captain (staff officer; instigator? Inspiration for name)

Titchmarsh, Rfm / L/Cpl AH (Harry)

Western, Rfm Ernest George (George)

Warren, Lt HH

Weldon, Sig FE (Stella)

Hunt, Septimus (post-war shows)

Liddiatt, Wilfred V (post-war shows)

[Dean Williams]

Hello Kate,

Thanks very much for that confirmation, I could only find the one reference to George possibly being present during the army days, and that was Gordon Marsh's Times obituary although as that was wrong in other details I thought it might be on that point too.

For example it quoted him as a founding member since being in hospital in Alexandria with a wounded foot and meeting Captain Roose to form the Roosters together, but I already knew that the Roosters had been together since March 1917 in Salonika and their arrival in Alexandria was after many performances en route. But despite a few clinkers it seemed less likely they'd quote him as having been in a double act with George Western if Western had only been in the BBC concert party days, as Marsh left the Roosters after the War to form his own concert parties so it could only have been during the War.

Do you have anything on the ultimate fate of Arthur Mackness, Percy Merriman, William Mack, Charles Harrison or Frederick Pain, the long term members at all? Despite 30 years continuous service in the concert party, all disappear from newspaper records in 1947 with nothing of when they died. The only one to get an obit in the Times is Gordon Marsh (who was only in it for a few years)! I know Percy Merriman at least was alive in 1964 as he aeppared on Desert Island Discs that year, choosing some of the old Roosters Concert Party 78s as his desert island records.

PS. I appear to be a Lance-Corporal already, that's the quickest promotion I've ever earned (or not earned) in my life!

Regards,

Dean

[Kate Wills]

The Times obit for Marsh appears to have a line missing, so it is a sloppy job.

I haven't explored the demises of anyone but Merriman. I think there are a couple of candidates for his death occuring in the early 70s. A session with Ancestry should yield results. Do you have a subscription, or would you like me to have a look?

The Roosters did continue until the 1950s, when the orginal members also met-up for reunions. 1n 1953, Merriman advertised the availability of a show called 'The Roosters (At Your Service)' of which he was the only real Rooster. However, I imagine this was pretty much a last throw of the dice. They would all have been a bit creaky by then, and within a few years live theatre had to contend with TV.

You could try contacting the BBC Written Archive for a transcript of his Desert Island Discs episode, though be prepared for disappointment. I tried years ago, and told the late Gill Knight (author of the book on the Civil Service Rifles, who also asked me about The Rooosters while researching her book) how uncooperative they were. We both thought a publicly-funded body should be a little more welcoming to serious researchers, but I digress...

[David_Underdown]

I think that now the BBC has reached agreement with the widow of the original DID presenter, they are gradually untying the archives online

[Dean Williams]

Thanks Kate,

That means there's still more for me to reseach then if then go on to the 50s! I thought it odd that everything would just stop in 1947 so though perhaps live shows may have continued when the BBC were no longer interested in them. Clearly none fo them were big enough shows to warrant national press atention though!

I had been on Ancentry but here are at least two Percy Merrimans about the right age that fit the bill and with insufficient infomation on his past I can't be sure which, if either, is him! There's one born 'about 1897' living in Newmarket, Cambridgeshire on the 1911 Census, whose Father would be Henry James Merriman and a younger sister called Doris, and there's one born 19th Dec 1894 who died in March 1973, living in Pershore, Worcestershire at death. The second one in Worcestershire also has an Army record from 1914 showing him to have been in the SM Brigade RFA which I don't think matches our Percy Merriman? South Midland Ryal Field Artillery wouldn't come under the London Territorial Regiments of 60th Devision although I suppose there's nothing to say he didn't change units after 1914, but that's some change!

There's a Septimus Hunt born around 1894 that would be about the right age but again it's a case of knowing if our Septmus came from Grimsby, he's about the best match so far but with insufficient family history it's difficult to pin him down. And like with Charles Harrison really being William Harrison I can't even be sure at this stage whether Septimus Hunt was even his real or full name! And you'd think a name like Septimus Hunt would be fairly unique but there are bloody dozens of them on Ancentry!

The BBC have beenless than helpfull in teh past but at the moment there is a project to put all the surviving Desert Island Discs online. They've got as far back as 1986 so far but the problem is there are hige gaps in the early years, with nothing from the 40s, only a handful in the 50s and alot of gaps in the 60s, so it may be lost anyway! I'll try them again anyway.

I'll carry on digging away, unfortunately Percy Merriman's son, Eric Merriman is also dead now (he was also a comedy scriptwriter, writing Beyond Our Ken for Kenneth's Horne and Williams in the 60s). But Eric's son, Andrew, is still around, and is the third generation of scriptwriter in the family. I'll try contacting him to see if he has anything on his Grandfather.

Regards,

Dean

[Kate Wills]

Merriman was already married when he enlisted, so that narrows the field. I could have kicked myself when I heard that Eric Merriman had died. Too late again!

Regarding Septimus Hunt et al, one of the bugbears of WW1 entertainment research is stage names. Add to that the difficulties presented by people like Western, who adopt second names in preference to their first etc etc It's not an easy ride.

Have you found the photo of George Western in 1935 on Ancestry? It is the one taken when he gained his Aero Club certificate in 1935.

By the way, this query was posted on my blogspot recently:

"I'm interested in the Roosters WW1 concert party, in particular my Uncles father George R Lawrence who was apparently part of this group"

Edited 9 March , 2012 by Kate Wills

[Dean Williams]

I have now find our Percy's Medal Card (down as Percival H Merriman) which is sadly lacking info at the bottom on when he first saw service but it at least gives us his Regiment Number of 53462 and a member of the 15th London Regiment (most Roosters are either 15th or 16th LR so that'll be him).

Can rule out a couple of the Percy Merrimans in terms of births and deaths (one died in the war so he's out, another died in 1938 so he's out as he was on Desert Island Discs in '64). One in the RFA Regimental Number 2950 first saw action in France in March 1918 so he's out as ours was in Salonika in 1917. The one born and died in Pershore, Worcester is unlikely as he was in South Midlands Royal Field Artilery, Reg. No. 2900) so he's very doubtful as i'm pretty sure our Merriman was a Londoner born and bred.

Which pretty much leaves one born in Fulham in October 1896 lacking in other details.

The other members birth/service/death records are proving more difficult but I've tracked down a few now and have their regiment numbers and a few births and deaths that tie up, still some other details to sift through and piece together. When I've sorted out a few bits of the puzzle I'll forward it to you.

The stage names do make it diffcult! I wish these Medal cards which seem to be plentiful had an "also known as" bit!

William H. Harrison is a case in point, I know his army Roosters stage name was Charlie but God knows why he kept the name Charles Harrison after the war in normal life too!

Yes, I have George's Aero Club stuff and quite a fair few pics of George during his Western Brothers days. With George I haev pretty much coverd his life now.

I've also seen pics of Charles (W.H.) Harrison. I do also have a BBC picture of the Roosters Concert Party from 1937 which is the then current team of Merriman, Mack, Mackness, Hunt, Harrison and Pain but have no other pictures of reference I do not know which is which in the picture. Do you have any pictures of the Roosters from the War years?

Regards,

Dean

[Dean Williams]

By the way, this query was posted on my blogspot recently:

"I'm interested in the Roosters WW1 concert party, in particular my Uncles father George R Lawrence who was apparently part of this group"

The only Lawrence I know of in the Roosters is Private R.A. Lawrence but I should think its possible that like several of the others he left off the George and used R Lawrence?

I'm surprised the army could keep track of personnel with all their jiggery-pokery over names!

[Kate Wills]

I've been rummaging for HH Warren today.

Halcombe Hatfield Warren

Birth Date: 4 Nov 1894 Hackney

2nd/17 London Regiment, Royal Air Force

Married Norah and by 1932 address 40 Hervey Close Finchley N3

Date death of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1977

Age at Death: 82

Registration district: Stevenage

Buried: Durrington Cemetery Section Number : 22 Row Number : 17 Grave number : 14

Location of Cemetery : Durrington Cemetery, Findon Road, Worthing. BN14 0AA

Entrance is on the northbound A24 just after the Offington Corner roundabout

Anyone in Worthing who could take a photo perchance?

[Dean Williams]

A couple of articles I've read on the formation of the Roosters state that a Lieutenant was responsible for organising the Concert Party and I suspect that 2nd Lt. Warren is a very likely candidate, given his involvement in the concert party too, and the fact that he returned for a celebratory Roosters broadcast in 1938 as a special guest along with Captain Roose.

The RAF bit must have come later though as it was only formed in April 1918 out of the RFC and RNAS.

Regards,

Dean

[Kate Wills]

Divisional concert parties normally had an appointed officer in charge who usually handled organisation and business affiars i.e. a manager. Interesting though that Merriman's service record notes his hard work with the concert party, and his being "an excellent organiser", which suggests he took a managerial role when Warren left, despite being outranked by Mackness.

[Dean Williams]

Yes Merriman was certainly in charge of the Concert Party through the civilian days, being not only the writer of most of the sketches but stage and Business manager too.

[Kate Wills]

Sorry Dean, I omitted one member of The Roosters.

A show in February 1918 was given under the direction of Lt H E Ward.

[Dean Williams]

Thanks Kate,

Another short-term member I should think. No doubt people were comong and going in the concert party, and filling in where necessary fo those that couldn't be present. I believe there were 18 members during the war period so there are another 3 to identify. Do you have the details on where that show in February 1918 was held and what other members were present? Cinderella in Army Boots finished in February, was it the end of this show or the next?

Regards,

Dean

[timashdown@aol.com]

Hello Dean,

Are you still researching "The Roosters"? My Grandfather's war time papers (Col. Charles Franklin Ashdown then Captain with the 2/19th (St Pancras) London Regimemt) has a number of references to The Roosters whilst in Palestine, photo's and show pamphlets one performed in Jerusalem christmas 1917. References are also to be found in "Memories" a magazine which he edited for 12 years or so. Contact me via pm and I will give you more information.

Tim Ashdown

[Charles Fair]

An excellent thread. Tim, I was fascinated to see your programme for the Blue Triangles. Apart from a one line entry in the war diary for 1919 it is the first I have seen of hem.

Charles

[Rooster Wantling]

Hello - i know this topic is now 5 years old so please forgive me. I have copies of 7 photographs some with inscriptions which were in the possession of my Grandfather Thomas Wantling who served with the Royal Artillery during WW1. To cut a long story short he told his children that he performed with a Concert Party called the Roosters and because of his singing - countertenor voice did the female roles on stage. I was told this by my Father and Aunt some 30 years ago. I’ve recently tried to track him down but to no avail. Interestingly on this thread ‘Charles Fair’ mentions Blue Triangles and on one of the images the Clowns have triangles in their costume design.

[seaJane]

Great photos! This looks like his medal card, downloadable for £3.50 from the National Archives - served with the Royal Field Artillery.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5734557