Great War British Sub Buried In Park

[ph0ebus]

What a story!

Buried British Submarine in UK Park

Has anyone identified either the submarine or the German ship the bow came from?

-Daniel

[Leigh Mc]

Interesting story. I wonder if we will hear more of it?

[Guest exuser1]

And there are still the remains of 2 Great War German submarines sitting in the mud on the Medway in Kent ,coverd in a 1970 issue of After The Battle and still the remains lay for all to see in 2012 !

[centurion]

Makes a change from the stories of tanks buried in various parks (none of which have ever been found!)

[Anneca]

I thought the only U-boats were German!

"Dartmouth Museum claims to have photographic evidence which can prove that a British U-boat is buried beneath the town's Coronation Park."

[Guest exuser1]

In some ways not true as we re used 2 the French had some post war as did the Finns and I may be wrong but also the Isralie navy I believe may have had one ?

[CULVERIN]

I do know which RN sub this is.

Have posted details on another forum some time ago with no interest.

Everbody believed a german u boat to be there.

Total bo//ocks.

What is it with the obsession with u boats.

They are soooo over rated and rather uninteresting.

During WW1 the RN probably knew more about them, their build and operations than the Hun did.

Certainly more than most of their unfortunate crews.

I also have the id of another RN warship down there.

Unfortunate that so few people pay attention.

[jbw541]

Hello Culverin,

Can you post a link to your earlier information, I`d be very interested in reading it.

Thanks. Joe

[centurion]

I thought the only U-boats were German!

Well the KuK had a few as well

[Signals]

What is it with the obsession with u boats.

They are soooo over rated and rather uninteresting.

Prior to WW1 the British hardly rated U-Boats a threat, they developed a fantastic submarine service but on the other hand did little in anti-submarine warfare and were well and truly caught with their pants down, so much so Jellicoe states in 1916 they may never find a solution to the U-Boats. Strange isn’t it that Germany had so few U-Boats at the start of the war, but one wonders how they managed to build another with such a supposed successful blockade against them.

The U-Boats were sent out to economically ruin England, and the facts are England was toppled from top of the Mercantile shipping lists, effectively the balance of commercial shipping power was handed to the United States and with it world wealth. Japan also dramatically leapt up the Mercantile shipping table, and as history has shown, the Royal Navy followed suite hand in hand with the slide of their Mercantile dominance. The dream of having a navy twice the size of the next 2 combined was over and that of growing an even bigger empire.

And in all this, none other than the likes of Jellicoe and his immediate staff were responsible for not winning at Jutland and worse still from that point never actively trying to bring the HSF to battle, as it was the HSF allowing the U-Boats to get out under their guns.

So hardly boring, they changed the face of sea warfare for good.

Also the Royal Navy did not know as much as you suggest, in fact their obession with building high speed usless Submarines was based more on what they did not know about German U-Boats and what the Germans were planning to build. Why would you build high speed submarines designed to engage in a fleet action you never intend to fight, a waste.

[centurion]

The problem the British had was that they had initially thought of the submarine as a weapon to be used against other warships and all tactics (offensive or defensive) involving them were skewed by this. Submarines of the time were essentially torpedo boats that could submerge but spent most of their time on the surface where, using their internal combustion engines, they could move relatively quickly over significant distances. Once submerged and reliant on battery power their speed was very limited as was their range and the amount of time they could stay down before running out of air or power. Unless attacking warships at anchor a submerged submarine was reliant on ambush tactics (ie being at the right place at the right time). The idea of the fast fleet submarine was to get to that right place in time and then submerge forming an ambush.The defence against the submarine was a screen of destroyers and fast escort vessels to force the submarine to keep down so that it could not keep up with it's surface target. No one had thought about a Guerre de Corse against commercial shipping where shipping routes were predictable and merchantmen slow and ambush tactics could be used most of the time against individual ships. U boats lurked rather than chased. It took some time to change the naval mindset (hence Jellicoe's pessimistic comments) but answers were found in the adoption of convoy systems and the increasing use of air power to keep the subs at periscope depth and unable to keep up with convoys. [One should remember that in WW2 U boats tended to attack convoys at night and on the surface, submerging only after attacking to avoid the convoy escorts]. In WW1 the communications capability was too poor to allow U boats to adopt the wolf pack tactics of WW2.

Looking at the photo it seems to show a hull in the latter stages of being broken up where it lies. If this was completed then there is nothing under the park, if not then there is at best but the bottom half of a stripped hull. To say that there is a submarine buried under the park is very far from the mark.

[ph0ebus]

Aaaaaaaand the identity of the aforementioned vessels are...??

-Daniel

[CULVERIN]

are...??

Before we all get too excited and the sorry state of said vessels as in #1 photograph,

both the submarine and destroyer in question were being demolished by their respective shipbreakers.

The physical condition of both was very poor, only enough of each remained to ensure their safe tow to Dartmouth.

The hulks arrived in 1923 and were subsequently incorporated as components in the new extensive embankment facing the river Dart,

which would duly become Coronation park, an expansive area on the northern river front reclaimed from creeks, boat yards and nature generally.

Why these 2 were selected , i do not know, and precisely what was done with their sorry remains appears lost in the mists of time.

There will be nothing remaining other than the frames which hold the badly corroded plates together with their attendant rivets and bolts.

90 years will have taken a heavy toll.

However, for the benefit of all, but especially those with a vested interest in Dartmouth,

the 2 are...

[ph0ebus]

(Drum roll please!)

[CULVERIN]

H.M.S. E.52

H.M.S. JED

[RobL]

There is a German U Boat on display at Cannakale, across the Dardanelles from the Gallipoli Peninsula, well worth a visit

[ph0ebus]

H.M.S. E.52

H.M.S. JED

Thanks!

Daniel

[submarine]

I seem to remember an article and photo of this Submarine in the park story in a magazine called " Britain at War " ,

Sorry I can not remember which back issue it was in .

Colin

[CULVERIN]

A more interesting, visible, site exists further West.

On the North coast of Cornwall is the estuary of the river Hayle.

In 1920 Thomas W. Ward. Ltd, the renowned shipbreakers acquired two sites on this river.

The larger was on the Eastern side at Hayle where numerous surplus war tonnage arrived from 1921, including HMS Bristol.

Over on the Western bank they acquired the smaller Lelant site for the sum of £2800 and constructed the Lelant quay.

Which ships ended their days there is hazy, at best, but the company did leave ample evidence of their occupation at this new industrial base.

Visible to this day are the unidentified remains of those warship hull plates, claims they are destroyers are unproven, which were placed vertically there to form the new Lelant quay and support some light railway sidings to join the main coast railway line passing close by for the purpose of rail wagon disposal of scrap.

Exactly where these plates originated is not known, but also include deck portions at the ends.

It is my guess they originated from Hayle scrapped ships as work there preceeded that at Lelant.

Over the decades the quay which was backfilled with all manner of heavy materials is now collapsing with portions destroyed. it is simply referred to as shuttering.

The area locally has for many years been referred to as Dynamite quay, when it was subsequently in use by the local dynamite works.

Maybe there is something elsewhere about those dynamite works on this forum.

May i wish everyone a happy Christmas 2012 and a joyous new year and 2013.

[Guest]

HMS Jed  30 June 1920 sold to Thos W Ward of Sheffield for breaking at Preston, Lancashire???  I am very interested in what is buried under Coronation Park but can't find evidence.

[NigelS]

Please pardon the pun, this story 'resurfaced' in today's (13th October '22) Daily Telegraph Naval officer may have solved 90-year mystery of 'submarine under the park' this is probably behind a firewall for those without a DT subscription (?), but it also appears in Naval officer ‘solves’ 90-year mystery of the ‘submarine in the park’ in Devon town on the  www.royalnavy.mod.uk/ website.  Little new than was previously posted other than that E8 has been put forward as a candidate rather 'Jed'.

Next will be the news that an RAF officer has solved the mystery of the buried Spitfires...

NigelS