nick ward408 Posted 19 February , 2012 Share Posted 19 February , 2012 Hi all, I have been researching the Mendi for the past two years as by chance I found 3 black burials in my home town of Littlehampton, West Sussex and Tuesday along with two other colleagues from the forum will be laying a floral tribute. The story is an interesting one as these three black men and the ships baker (white chap) were found off shore and taken into harbour, the post mortem on the the ships baker (identified by a letter in his pocket) was carried out and drowning given as cause of death, they did not examine the three black gentlemen but knew from ID tags who they were and all were in uniform, however, the baker went home to Bootle and the remaining three put into one grave with a CWGC headstone without full details (happy to say this is being rectified) and it always puzzled me why? as they knew who each individual was by their ID and also the bodies were in good condition. There were only 14 bodies ever recovered and buried on British soil, 9 in Portsmouth, 3 in Littlehampton, 1 in Hastings and 1 in East Dean, and part of my research has been in helping the South African Legion find clues as to if relatives can be contacted so that closure can be made for them. This is when I made an awful discovery, the 9 buried in Portsmouth consist of 8 black and one white NCO/Officer, when I checked the grave references to go and visit them I found the 8 blacks share two graves and the white NCO/Officer is in his own grave! This cannot be normal surely? they were in service to the King wearing his uniform serving alongside British servicemen and the best we could do was dig three graves for 11 men? Is this the best we could do? was it the 'done' thing with these soldiers? I don't know about the rest of you but I am absolutely appalled and cannot for the life of me come up with an answer other than the authorities of the day could not give a hoot for black men in the King's livery? It will go further, as even before I found this chilling new piece of information the South African legion are writing to the President of South Africa asking for a high ranking official to be present when the CWGC erect the new headstone for the three in Littlehampton, hopefully in time for next years anniversary, so what they will make of this new piece of information goodness only knows but some sort of explanation needs to given. Let me know if you have come across similar burials/mass graves or any other explanation you may think of. Watch this space! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 19 February , 2012 Share Posted 19 February , 2012 It's how it was. The world was different then. Yes,it should be put right if it reasonably can be, but your 21st century reaction shows - with respect to your entirely honourable sensibilities - a lack of historical awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Nick, The reasons for the burial arrangements could have related to lack of identification on the victims, or indeed problems of not being able to formally identify the bodies. This was a ship sinking, and bodies probably washed ashore, in some cases several days, or perhaps even longer, after the ship sank. There are other such cases, particularly of ships which sank, where the victims were buried together. For example, The Lusitania, of the 1,969 persons aboard the ship, only 774 survived; for weeks after the event, bodies would wash ashore along the Irish coast, and many of the victims were buried in mass graves ( photographs attached ). With regard to any suggestion of a possible racial issue, please remember, history shows us that there were different attitudes to racial issues in times past, and also more recent times, and that it was not until the mid 1960s that some parts of America desegregated, and South Africa itself, did not desegregate until even much later. So it is extremely hard to put oneself into daily life as it was some 100 years ago, and apply the same comparisons to life as it is today in the 21st Century. Whilst I am not to sure many people in the U.K. know the story of the troopship Mendi, it is certainly a very well known, well documented and commemorated part of South African history, with The Mendi Memorial at Avalon Cemetery in Soweto, South Africa being unveiled by Queen Elizabeth II on 23 March 1995. The South African Navy also accorded honour to those who died in this tragedy, with one of their Valour Class Corvettes being named SAS Mendi. There is also a memorial to the men who died on the Mendi on a panel at the Delville Wood Memorial in France, which has a representation of the Mendi Disaster on it. Another memorial to the Mendi was unveiled in Cape Town. A sculpture, by local artist Madi Phala, represents a mock ship's prow cast in heavy metal, sinking into the ground. In front of it are helmets, hats and discs, symbolising the men, officers and crew of the SS Mendi. A plaque simply reads "SS Mendi, S. African troopship, sank next to the Isle of Wight 1917 02 21". Located on an embankment on the Mowbray campus of the University of Cape Town, the site has significance to the Mendi, as it here that troops of the South African Native Labour Contingent had billeted before embarking on the ill-fated SS Mendi for France. Additionally, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission commissioned a 20 minute film called "Let Us Die Like Brothers" which is to be used as a teaching aid, highlighting the role of black soldiers in World War I. The film was released in South Africa in February 2007, the 90th anniversary of the sinking of the Mendi. In March 2009, after a long campaign, the Ministry of Defence finally agreed to designate the site of the wreck of the Mendi as an official war grave. Today the bridge telegraph from the Mendi can be seen at the Maritime Museum, Bembridge, on the Isle of Wight. So as you can see, much has been done to commemorate the tragic sinking of the Mendi in 1917. For those members not familiar with the sinking of the Mendi, here is a short summary of the incident:- The troopship Mendi set sail from Cape Town on 16 January 1917 with 802 members of the 5th Battalion, South African Native Labor Corps (SANLC). Her final destination was La Havre, France. The men from the SANLC were mostly from the rural areas of the Pondo Kingdom in the Eastern Cape, South Africa. They were not to be used as a fighting force and were forbidden to bear arms as there was a fear that they could revolt against military or civilian authority. Instead they were to be utilised as labourers digging trenches and performing other manual labour as well as forming stretcher bearer parties. After calling at Plymouth she set sail for Le Havre, and in thick mist, while approximately 12 miles off St Catherine's Point on the Isle of Wight she was struck on the starboard side by the SS Darro, a 11000 ton liner. It was the 21st of February. Immediately the Mendi started to list to starboard and sink. The troops on board were mostly asleep in the troopdecks and the collision must have been a terrifying experience for men who were not used to the sea, and many could not swim. The Darro had backed out of the hole she had caused and the sea poured into this breach. Thick mist complicated the situation and it was obvious that many would never make it to safety, with the Mendi having only 25 minutes afloat. Many would perish from exposure that night and the resulting death toll was high. Of the 802 SANLC troops on board some 615 men perished. The Darro made no attempt to rescue survivors and the Master of the ship would have his licence suspended for a year. It was found that the Darro was travelling at high speed in the fog and was responsible for the collision. Photograph - Troopship Mendi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Lusitania victims mass graves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Mendi Memorial - Delville Wood, France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Mendi Memorial, South Africa - unveiled by Queen Elizabeth II on 23 March 1995. Mendi Memorial - South Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Nick, From this report of the Taranto Mutiny incident in 1918, there were historic racial issues within the military. " After Armistice Day, on 11 November 1918, the eight BWIR battalions in France and Italy were concentrated at Taranto in Italy to prepare for demobilisation. They were subsequently joined by the three battalions from Egypt and the men from Mesopotamia. As a result of severe labour shortages at Taranto, the West Indians had to assist with loading and unloading ships and do labour fatigues. This led to much resentment, and on 6 December 1918 the men of the 9th Battalion revolted and attacked their officers. On the same day, 180 sergeants forwarded a petition to the Secretary of State complaining about the pay issue, the failure to increase their separation allowance, and the fact that they had been discriminated against in the area of promotions. During the mutiny, which lasted about four days, a black NCO shot and killed one of the mutineers in self-defence and there was also a bombing. Disaffection spread quickly among the other soldiers and on 9 December the 'increasingly truculent' 10th Battalion refused to work. A senior commander, Lieutenant Colonel Willis, who had ordered some BWIR men to clean the latrines of the Italian Labour Corps, was also subsequently assaulted. In response to calls for help from the commanders at Taranto, a machine-gun company and a battalion of the Worcestershire Regiment were despatched to restore order. The 9th BWIR was disbanded and the men distributed to the other battalions which were all subsequently disarmed. Approximately 60 soldiers were later tried for mutiny and those convicted received sentences ranging from three to five years, but one man got 20 years, while another was executed by firing squad. An organisation called the Caribbean League was formed at the gathering to further these objectives... Although the mutiny was crushed, the bitterness persisted, and on 17 December about 60 NCOs held a meeting to discuss the question of black rights, self-determination and closer union in the West Indies. An organisation called the Caribbean League was formed at the gathering to further these objectives. At another meeting on 20 December, under the chairmanship of one Sergeant Baxter, who had just been superseded by a white NCO, a sergeant of the 3rd BWIR argued that the black man should have freedom and govern himself in the West Indies and that if necessary, force and bloodshed should be used to attain these aims. His sentiments were loudly applauded by the majority of those present. The discussion eventually drifted from matters concerning the West Indies to one of grievances of the black man against the white. The soldiers decided to hold a general strike for higher wages on their return to the West Indies. The headquarters for the Caribbean League was to be in Kingston, Jamaica, with sub-offices in the other colonies. Some 600 former BWIR soldiers who had remained in the U.K. were later repatriated. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Here is a list of the officers and men who died in the Mendi sinking :- Emslie, S. Lieutenant Richardson, E.H. Lieutenant Turner, T.K. Regimental Sergeant Major Botes, A.D. Staff Sergeant Cockrell, A. Staff Sergeant Botha, C.H. Colour Sergeant Ford, T.A. Colour Sergeant Knaggs, R. Colour Sergeant MacTavish, R.A. Colour Sergeant Abraham, Andries 11164 Abrahams, Fred 11163 Aliveni, Jim 8911 Bade, George 9707 Badlana, Joel 10016 Baleni, Langeni 11098 Banana, Nkeni 9665 Bangani, Mxonywa 9379 Basilie, Isaac 9170 Bay, James 9294 Beko, Heny 9374 Beta, Jack 9164 Beyulea, Windvogel 11070 Bhay, Jim 9260 Bikleni, Dodoka 9377 Bokleni, Henry 7587 Booi, John 9690 Bovi, Mkokeli 10017 Bungane, Freddy 11169 Butitje 9802 Chesa, Elijah 11170 Collis, Vimba 9650 Dabani, Jim 9241 Dampi, Piet 9203 Danki, Thomas 9215 Dano, William 9265 Dealtaha, Annaniya 9754 Dengese, Aldum 9567 Dinoka, Geelbooi 9780 Ditsepo, William 9436 Dyushani, John 10018 Eland, Piet 11138 Etea, Piet 11188 Fidyoli, John 11172 Franci, Rueben 9956 Fule, Steven 9261 Gabaza, William 564 Gabutloeloe, Lucas 9708 Geina, Manie 9689 Gigima, John 8010 Gilweni, Jim Tom 9915 Gobizitwana, Willie 11206 Gqweta, Henry 9928 Gumede, John 11216 Msiya, Lemu Galimini 9647 Gumeni, Charlie 9685 Gwabu, Jack 9321 Gwatyuza, Jacob 9954 Hasbane, Jan 9147 Hendricks, James 9943 Hendricks, Willem 11132 Hlangweni, Mtati 11161 Hlatshwayo, Fishi 11126 Hlope, Zanempi 11120 Holoane, Francis 11171 Homelane, Willie 9289 Jackson, Abrams 9803 Jacobo, Isaac 9695 Jamangile, Jim 8892 Jantole, Joseph 8900 Johnson, Willie 8913 Jonas, Jim 9710 Jonas, Saluseni 9244 Jongilanga, Pansi 9390 Jubile, Lawrence 11045 Kabi, Simeon 10964 Kakana, Jan 9441 Kakele, Mac 9154 Kale, Karl 9818 Kali, Hamilton 10021 Kaloto, Simon 9418 Kana, Mali 11176 Karishi, Change 9146 Kashane, Jan 9176 Kataza, John 9686 Kazamula, Moskein 9626 Kazamula, Simon 10931 Kazimula, Natal 9623 Kepisa, Jack 10374 Kepsize, Johnson 9848 Ketsbai, Helon 9905 Kgadile, Kleinbooi 9820 Kgana, Johannes 3703 Kgatjane, Lucas 11144 Kgobosemang, Kleinbooi 9740 Kgosi, Isaac 9211 Kgupa, Longone 9425 Khaile, Robinson 11173 Khoanamutsi, Mapipe 9429 Kholopane, Dovey 10960 Ngcobo, Vincent Pansi 9319 Kladi, John 9578 Kleinbooi, Jack 9263 Koalane, Josaih Walter 10896 Kokoto, Jonas 9398 Kolong, Kimon 9822 Koluba, Sam 9406 Koopman, Jan 9293 Kopane, Jan 11048 Kopane, Snele 9666 Kozamula, Captain 9447 Kula, Hlongwana 11088 Kumalo, Magwala 11112 Kuse, John 9785 Kutshwayo, James Henry 5969 Kwikanye, Jack 9290 Lebeko, Charlie 9415 Leboche, Abram 11056 Lefi, Ishmael 11141 Legoabe, Stephen 9763 Legwale, Stephen Lucas 3274 Lekau, Alfred 9188 Lekau, John 1256 Lekgoli, Soloman 9728 Lekhoto, John 1791 Lepero, Geelbooi 9829 Ntshangase, Dick Mqitsha 9914 Lephethe, David Job 11196 Lesele, Corporal 9654 Lesetja, Jan 11063 Leshage, William 10947 Lesiba, Daniel 10369 Lesiba, Jan 10384 Lesiba, Joseph 9186 Lesiba, Simon 10371 Lesibana, Jim 10364 Lesitja, Charlie 10373 Lesitja, Martinus 9908 Lesoale, Johannes 11192 Letau, Karel 9286 Letebele, Namatshan 9748 Letebele, Pond 9155 Letwatwa, Lucas 9659 Lifa, John 11247 Likgoli, David 9946 Likgoli, Sebolai 9947 Linganiso, Simon 10020 Lithaba, Michele 9761 Liwela, Frans 10951 Louw, Piet 11137 Luhlongwana, Koni 9580 Luputini, Jacobus 9255 8 Maake, Saucepan 9142 Mabagwana, Titi 9271 Mabane, Mpini 9393 Mabaso, Zula 11122 Mabila, Charlie 9126 Mabururu, Abraham 9125 Macambi, Mareyama 9794 Madikizela, Tatani 9388 Madimetja, Jacob 10383 Madosi, Robert 8910 Madubanya, Jack 10365 Madume, Botha 9124 Madume, Frans 9189 Madume, Jack No. 1 9174 Madume, Jack 9408 Madume, Jim 10949 Madume, Kleinbooi 9185 Madume, Mackson 9420 Madzibana, Frans 9631 Mafadi, Ephraim 9576 Mafika, Daniel 9371 Mafiliba, Mtigedwa 9243 Magadi, Daniel 562 Magagamela, Alison 8356 Magaju, Hlongwana 11092 Maggisi, Sitini 11079 Magoba, Isaac 9195 Magudulwana, Hlongwana 11093 Magwegwana, Hlongwana 11105 Mahaladi, Windvogel 11067 Maharo, Stephen 9544 Mahlaba, Whisky 9629 Mahlentle, Richard 9773 Mahloapitseng, Klaas 10965 Mahludi, Isaac 11154 Mahohoda, Klass 9643 Mahutu, Canteen 9149 Makalima, Robert 9288 Makamba, Bloro 9198 Makasha, Jim 3021 Makatini, Nongqayi 9558 Makatu, Kleinbooi 11181 Makaye, Ndabana 11215 Makeleni, Kimberley 9688 Makhohe, Jan 8967 Makilitshi, Paraffin 9117 Makoba, Majuta 10002 Makoe, Jack Jantji 11185 Makole, Benjamin 9839 Makopans, Frank 9897 Makosana, Charles 9143 Makudu Johannes 9898 Makwane, Jacob 9857 Makwatedi, Mack 9193 Makwena, Josias 9857 Malebogo, Jack 9427 Malemutle, Chairlie 9119 Malesela, Jan 10363 Malgas, Hlanga 9932 Mali, Mac 11069 Maluse, Charlie 10391 Maluse, Frans 10382 Maluse, Lucas 10366 Mambolo, Johannes 11065 Mandcas, Sam 9248 Mandubule, Dick 10027 Mandwane, Hlatshwayo 11101 Maneka, Jack 10375 Mangaliso, Hlongwana 11090 Mangapela, Piet 11150 Mange, William 9709 Mangise, John 9669 Mangoloane, Jacob 8997 Mangqe, Timothy 8876 Mangwana, Jan 9162 Mantupsi, Jack 9426 Manunyane, Bernard 9285 Manzane, Ben 9635 Mapalala, Keve 11121 Maparana, Charlie 9136 Maphessa, William 9563 Mapheto, Hosiah 11066 Maphoto, Harry 9826 Mapulane, Sampson 9433 March, Martinus 11135 Marofula, Jacob 11057 Marole, Willem 9138 Martinus, Johannes 9295 Masade, Albert 9757 Masaleni, Jeremiah 9927 Maseko, Windvogel Captain 11071 Mashali, Jameson 9411 Masia, Dick 9432 Masiaane, Jim 9562 Masikela, William 9173 Masilo, Transvaal 9782 Masina, Taweni 9238 Masinde, Jonas 9518 Masindi, George 9237 Masoling, Julius 11167 Matebula, Piet 9358 Mathlana, Aaron 9287 Matjala, Richard 9798 Matjola, Jan 9565 Matkala, Picennin 11186 Matlala, Johannes 11190 Matonsi, Jaftha 9806 Matsang, Abel 9751 Matshana, Hezekiah 9924 Mathse, Marcus 9853 Matshelane, Andries 9661 Matsubane, Jim 10368 Matume, Frans 10370 Matume, Moses 9760 Matupu, Thousand 9133 Mazaku, Gwavuma 9381 Mbata, Albert Nkomempunga 9913 Mbedla, Isaac 9931 Mbikwa, Sam 11140 Mbiyazwe, Jim 9199 Mbombiya, Jim 9373 Mbuzi, Mzingele 9382 Mcanyana, Russel Palmer 9792 Mcitshwa. John 9768 Mdata, Soloman 11075 Mduna, Edward 9770 Mdunyelwa, July 9922 Mdyogolo, Mnyeliso 9651 Mehlomane, Silwanyana 9242 Mekgoe, Herman 9253 Menza, John 9658 Mgidi, Billy 11204 Mgingana, Koza 11099 Mgoyoye, Petrus 9670 Mgwena, Soloman 9784 Mhlanga, Ndukwana 11118 Mijana, Willie 9831 Mkezo, Mpotyana 9394 Mkohla, Joseph 10012 Mkomazi, Frans 9152 Mkomazi, Jim 9627 Mkoni, John 9256 Mkonvama, Daniel 9118 Mkumguri, Jim 9736 Mlahleki, Jail 11155 Mlando, Hlongwana 11086 Mlonyeni, Robert 9386 Mncedana, Melville 7601 Mnyeliso, Gama 9652 Mnyikinwa, Longone 11055 Moatse, Josiah 8991 Mobitsela, William 9775 Modeba, Theophilus 9194 Modikeng, Goodman 11151 Modisane, Jan 10899 Modise, David 9204 Modisoatsile, George 9718 Moeata, Petrus 9783 Moeng, Sampson 9945 Maake, Joseph 9140 Mofokeng, Koos 10953 Mogalobutha, Klaas 9183 Mogorosi, Benjamin 10433 Mohale, Jacob 9177 Mohase, Vellum 9660 Mohowe, William 9128 Mokatakisa, Hendrick 10963 Mokgeleli, Aaron Jili 9333 Mokgosi, Aaron 9370 Mokgwere, Samuel 9743 Mokhali, Simon 10958 Mokhapo, Mac 9129 Molabi, Amos 9156 Molelekoa, Titus 9819 Molide, Sitebe 9267 Molife, Andries 11194 Molife, Linesa 9269 Molife, Mosmiti 9268 Molisanyane, Andries 9951 Moloi, Kleinbooi 9797 Moloi, Philip 11189 Moloyi, Mreki 9557 Moloyi, Ntikimana 9275 Molthlakane, Letsie 9838 Monahela, Edward 10959 Monamatuga, Thomas 9191 Mongologa, Joseph 9700 Monoke, Johannes 9825 Montso, Michael 11152 Monyako, Philip 9835 Monyele, Elias 9368 Morashe, Jim 9401 More, Pinefas 10434 Morolong, Walter 11178 Moshe, Moses 9132 Moshimane, Jack 10377 Mositsi, Amos 9739 Motaung, Jacob 9950 Motebang, Eliah 10962 Motela, Jack 9187 Mothei, Jan 9741 Motobi, Peter 7210 Motsoahai, Mpalakela 10957 Mpafulane, Udmund 9366 Mpatu, Simon 9437 Mpee, Johannes 9901 Mpete, Jan 9687 Mpoa, John 9721 Msesenyane, Jan 9632 Mshote, John 563 Msimango, Lubaro 9270 Msiya, Lemu Galimini 9647 Mtembu, Mswela 11109 Mtirara, John 9385 Mtolo, Sikaniso 9999 Mtombeni, Abraham 9560 Mtshotshisa, Gabayi 9939 Mudungazi, July 9638 Muhlaba, Joel 9252 Mukopo, Andries 9171 Mukotle, Fred 9168 Mulabe, Change 9440 Mulamu, David 9163 Munani, Mukale 9419 Murape, Jim 9430 Murda, Jack 11149 Mutinjwa, Daniel 9236 Mvele, Jerele Mazalemvula 9646 Mvula, Joniseni 11108 Myamana, Verandah 9622 Mzamani, Jim 9279 Mzayifana, Alfred 11207 Mzimane, Johannes 9677 Mzono, Jotama 11072 Nafufa, David 9644 Napane, Charlie 9421 Natedi, Jack 9141 Nawane, George 9698 Ncotele, Litye 9862 Ndaba, Pikiti 11128 Ndamase, Richard 9389 Ndanise, Baleni 9641 Ndeya, James 9795 Ndhluli, Jim 11060 Ndiki, Samuel 9859 Ndingi, Olifas 8893 Ndlankuhle, Nzulu 802 Ndlovu, Isaac 9529 Nduna, William 11058 Nepthale, Tsusa 11145 Ngade, Ben Elias 11061 Ngake, Enos 9749 Ngate, Canteen 9148 Ngate, Picannin 11054 Ngcenge, Durward 9771 Ngcobo, Pindela 9272 Ngcobo, Vincent Pansi 9319 Ngesi, Walter 9910 Ngqotoza, Zilandana 9653 Ngwahewa, Jan 9637 Ngwane, Jamse 9654 Nini, George 11053 Nkakuleni, Sly 9407 Nkhereanye, Lukase 5743 Nkoane, Peter 7277 Nkomandi, Konisars 9639 Nkunwana, Jack 9212 Nkwambene, Charles 9634 Nkwenkwe, John 9889 Nodolo, Squire 9772 Nokwelo, Makali 7067 Nomvaba, Charlie 9207 Nongwe, Johannes 10024 Nquza, Jabez 9202 Nsulansula, Zondo 11097 Ntabani, Picannin 9716 Ntelte, Frans 9139 Ntindili, Charlie 8891 Ntopi, Piet 11187 Ntoro, Kleinbooi 3711 Ntozake, Honono 8912 Ntshangase, Dick Mqitsha 9914 Ntshetsha, Mbalela 9383 Ntsieng, Bullar Martinus 9575 Ntsutswana,Thomas 9938 Nukula, Ben Sydney 11051 Nxazonke, Mlungu 9934 Nyambana, Konish 9636 Nyati, Samuel 9283 Nyonane, Ebenezer 11205 Nziba, John Clout 11177 Olibeng, Fanwell 9216 Olijn, Pieter 11131 Oliphant, Piet 11166 Pala, Alexander 9851 Pambili, James 11052 Papetje, Johannes 10378 Pasile, Radoma 9175 Pasoane, Amandus Aupa 11146 Pasoane, William 9850 Paulus, Dolf 11133 Payipeli, Charlie 9249 Payo, Jacob 9667 Perike, Ephraim 9599 Petela, Kleinbooi 9923 Petrus, Paul 9296 Petula, Stephen 10908 Phaladi, Bob 11046 Phiti, Tom 9179 Phohophedi, Thomas 8329 Pieters, Isaac 11162 Pietersen, Paulus 10900 Pikahila, Stephen 9793 Pinyana, Nodyiwana 8020 Pisani, Matthews 9151 Pitso, Andries 9911 Pitso, Jan 9717 Pkula, Simon 9953 Plaatje, Thomas 9657 Plaatjes, Malgas 9711 Poko, Philip 9824 Pokwane, Frans 9399 Ponyose, Koos 11059 Pugiso, David 9251 Pulana, Philemon 11047 Pule, Lazarus 9834 Pupuma, Madela 8907 Qaba, Edward 9648 Qakala, Jan 10013 Quvalele, Parafin 10022 Quzula, Charlie 10928 Qwebe, Cawood 9909 Rabatji, Jan 11064 Radelbe, James 9376 Radzaka, Jucas 9781 Rakau, Frans 11179 Rakgokong, Johannes 11062 Ramakalane, Titus 11193 Ramakhutle, Gerson 8992 Ramakoko, Modise 8990 Ramasi, Rabintoe 9746 Ramasita, Job 9902 Ramatea, Joseph 11143 Ramathodi, George 9896 Ramedekoane, Thijs 9001 Ramkosi, George 9833 Ramoho, Charlie 9130 Ramoshiela, Nicodimus 8994 Ramosole, Abel 9000 Rampomane, Aaron 11184 Rampopo, Lukas 8996 Rampunve, Jan 9733 Ramurumo, Frederick 9668 Raskane, Jan 9160 Ratilulu, Samuel 11147 Ratskogo, Gilmore 10897 Resinali, Picanin 9625 Roadway, Smith 9656 Rwairwai, Jerry 9694 Samela, Wolobile 9197 Seathlane, Selepe 10954 Sebadi, Samuel 994 Sefako, Geelbooi 8999 Sefako, Jim 9671 Segule, Smith 9122 Sekakaile, Rice 9412 Sekonyela, George 9816 Sekoro, Josiah 11142 Sekote, Stephanus 11191 Sekwidi, Jan 9779 Selami, Jim 9192 Sello, Seth 9907 Seodi, Green 9397 Sepalela, April 9417 Serewe, Jackson 9724 Setani, Style 9920 Setloko, Philemon 11180 Shebeshebe, Jack 10379 Shikamba, Jack 9445 Shiletane, Bossboy 9137 Sibalabula, Timotheus 9210 Sibalela, Jim 9240 Sibisi, Jacobus 9817 Sibizo, Edmund 11240 Sibolayi, Sampson 8993 Sifaku, Kleinbooi 10948 Sigededhla, Zachariah 9556 Sigidi, Hlongwana 11085 Sikawuleb, William 9755 Sikota, Theodore George 11202 Sikwayo, Ben 11157 Silika, Molefi 9266 Silwane, Frans 9121 Sinqana, July 11203 Siposa, Willie 9392 Sitebe, Mqobo 11107 Sitlaro, Koos 8995 Sitole, Charlie 10912 Sitole, Mgqiki 11116 Skhabi, Hermanus 11182 Skip, Jim 9428 Soka, Anderson 9892 Solani, Meji 9655 Somatshungu, Tom 9805 Somgede, William 9800 Songca, Lukakuva 8879 Stephens, George 9413 Stunga, James 9280 Suping, Abraham 9744 Suping, Johannes 11049 Swarts, Jan 11130 Swarts, Sma 11129 Tabudi, Jacob 9854 Takisi, Frank 9181 Tamasinya, Johannes 9590 Tambu, Peter 11168 Tankobong, Zachariah 9742 Tanoni, Phineas 11153 Tentata, July 11165 Thebeagae, Charlie 9753 Timpane, Billem 9745 Tiya, Percy 9706 Tlabure, Elias 11183 Tladivamutsi, Michael 11076 Tokhae, Jan 9134 Totwana, Hlongwana 11094 Tsamaya, Jacob 9246 Tsase, John 10950 Tsehlana, Jack 10372 Tshabalala, Kaysi 11102 Tshabana, Willie 9555 Tshange, Ngqakamatshe 11091 Tshekosi, Klaas 9780 Tshenene, Charlie 9860 Tshikari, Paul 11174 Tshite, Joseph 10431 Tshomolokse, Paul 9702 Tshotsha, Hlongwana 11110 Tshulo, Abram 9758 Tsule, Soloman 9434 Tube, Jackson 9259 Tumberi, Jim 9630 Tyilo, John 11198 Tywalana, Jeremiah 9649 Utuni, Frans 9776 Uziningo, Jantshi 9926 Voss, Philip 7229 Vovela, Joe 10929 Vutula, Charles 9801 Wauchope, Isaac 3276 Williams, Freddy 9714 Williams, Henry 9292 Zambezi, Hlongwana 11096 Zatu, John 9937 Zenzile, Arosi 9375 Zimuke, Mashaya 11068 Zingwana, Johannes 9640 Zinyusile, Edward 11158 Zitonga, Mongameli 8021 Zondi, Solomon Vili 9299 Zondo, Magida 11103 Zondo, Mufakabi 11114 Zondo, Pukwana 11115 Zulu, April 9247 Zwane, Sikonyana 11087 Zwane, Sukwana 11089 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 I have a different thought about this. Common (shared graves) were not at all unusual at that time and many casualties who died in the UK Military Hospitals far from their family homes were buried in these graves - with total strangers. This included nurses or VADs who died while serving in these hospitals and Colonial soldiers and sailors too. Colour took no part in the decision process, it was standard practice. You can see from reading THIS thread that the Australian Government later arranged for all Australian casualties who had been buried in common graves in the UK to be exhumed and re-buried in single graves. Regards CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 It appears that Pondo burial tradition was very similar to Zulu traditions. A chief would be buried on his own in some splendour but warriors would at best be buried together with little or no ceremony or even left to the animals. A Zulu web site explains that this was because the old religions taught that the body was of little account once the spirit had departed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Nick Greetings The South African government of the time denied the black SANLC men their legitimate entitlement to war medals. Also when in France they were not meant to leave their camps for recreational purposes. That was how it was. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick ward408 Posted 20 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2012 It appears that Pondo burial tradition was very similar to Zulu traditions. A chief would be buried on his own in some splendour but warriors would at best be buried together with little or no ceremony or even left to the animals. A Zulu web site explains that this was because the old religions taught that the body was of little account once the spirit had departed it. I have already walked down this avenue and it appears not to to be the case according to my South African experts, there were many men from different tribes and the 'together in life, together in death' scenario holds no water whatsoever, unless the families were aware of their resting place no closure could ever be given to the spirit, which is why the Mendi has been made a war grave (recently) so that en mass, any 'found' relatives have closure. However, the people who signed off the multiple burials in Milton and Littlehampton must have had some sort of brief as to internment but I have yet to find that little memo! A great deal still unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick ward408 Posted 20 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Nick Greetings The South African government of the time denied the black SANLC men their legitimate entitlement to war medals. Also when in France they were not meant to leave their camps for recreational purposes. That was how it was. Harry Very interesting and in my vein of thoughts too, so do you think our 'guests' deserve some legitimacy now? Especially in the world we live in now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick ward408 Posted 20 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2012 I have a different thought about this. Common (shared graves) were not at all unusual at that time and many casualties who died in the UK Military Hospitals far from their family homes were buried in these graves - with total strangers. This included nurses or VADs who died while serving in these hospitals and Colonial soldiers and sailors too. Colour took no part in the decision process, it was standard practice. You can see from reading THIS thread that the Australian Government later arranged for all Australian casualties who had been buried in common graves in the UK to be exhumed and re-buried in single graves. Regards CGM Thanks for that because it just reinforces my argument that nobody gave a toss about black South African troops who are STILL in joint graves whereas everyone else was given a great deal more care? I think you may wish to rethink the reasons you state but better still if you can find me examples of 'white' multiple graves in the UK who still lie together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 Thanks for that because it just reinforces my argument that nobody gave a toss about black South African troops who are STILL in joint graves whereas everyone else was given a great deal more care? I think you may wish to rethink the reasons you state but better still if you can find me examples of 'white' multiple graves in the UK who still lie together? http://1914-1918.inv...dpost&p=1537614 Satisfied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 20 February , 2012 Share Posted 20 February , 2012 There are thousands of German dead buried together in the Kameradengrab at Langemarck. The most important thing, at this remove of time, is surely that the Mendi casualties are remembered by name, and I seem to recall that there was recently a major project that laboriously researched all the casualties and was able to discover the true names of most of them — many of them having previously been identified only by nicknames, forenames and names 'assigned' to them by someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 Thanks for that because it just reinforces my argument that nobody gave a toss about black South African troops who are STILL in joint graves whereas everyone else was given a great deal more care? I think you may wish to rethink the reasons you state but better still if you can find me examples of 'white' multiple graves in the UK who still lie together? Here are some at Brookwood military Cemetery Click and, If I remember correctly, these are not the only such examples there. There might be another explanation for the single 'white' grave - incidentally, what are the relative positions of the burials at portsmouth are they adjacent or are there others in be tween; the references given by the CWGC (I.6.71, 73, & 78) indicates that the latter might be the case, but it would be unwise to assume that this is actually the case - The Times of 24th February carried the first reporting of the incident by reporting on an inquest for just four of the men involved (note that at that time it does not name the vessels involved nor the severity of the accident) one of whom is the occupant of the 'white' grave, MacTavish: A COLLISION AT SEA DEATHS FROM EXPOSURE Sir Thomas Bramsdon, Coroner for Portsmouth, held an inquest yesterday upon the bodies of P.R.A. MACTAVISH; WILLIAM WINDSOR SMALL, of Clarendon-road, Egremont, Cheshire; HERBERT RAINE, of Milton-road, West Hartlepool; and J.H. BAILEY of Grosvenor-road, Hoylake, who died from exposure following a collision at sea on Wednesday. The evidence showed that during a fog early in the morning two vessels came into collision in the Channel. One was struck on the starboard side near the foremast, and was so badly injured that she sank in about 20 minutes. The captain’s orders were carried out promptly and with perfect order until the last boat had left her. Most of the boats were lowered, and all aboard each ship had lifebelts on. One hundred and twenty persons from the sinking ship were picked up, but some of them died from the effect of the exposure, the four men named being among the number. The weather was very chilly and the water very cold. Herbert Frank Trapnell, the fourth officer, stated that he was on the bridge of the ship that sunk, and saw the other vessel approaching her in the fog. The oncoming vessel was about a ship’s length away when he sighted her, and the collision could not be avoided, though his ship’s engines were at once reversed. He was three hours in the water. The Coroner said that the evidence showed that no blame attached to anyone. The collision was a pure accident. A verdict of “Accidental death” was returned. This might mean that he was buried before the bodies of any of the native labourers had been recovered (or released for burial) - the date of death is known but the actual date of the burials is not; as has already been pointed out it was not uncommon for multiple deaths - military or otherwise - to be buried in common or pauper graves (see this site Click for the story of Jack Cornwell, V.C, who was initially buried in a communal grave and only received his own grave after it came to public attention through newspaper reporting ) The full horror of the Mendi collision wasn't made apparent to the general public until the 10th March - apparently, to allow time for an accurate statement to be made in SA - when it was reported in The Times: The Secretary of the War Office announces that the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa made the following statement in the Cape Parliament yesterday afternoon:- It is with deep regret that I have to announce to the House the sad news that the transport Mendi carrying the last batch of the South African Native Labour contingent (the rest have safely landed in France), collided with another vessel during passage from the United Kingdom to Havre and sank within 25 minutes. The collision took place 12 miles from the Isle of Wight on Wednesday, February 21, at 4.57 a.m. The escort’s searchlight was ineffective owing to the thick fog, but survivors were picked up by various vessels. I am sorry to say that the toll is a heavy one. Two European officers, 10 European non-commissioned officers, and 191 natives have been saved; one European non-commissioned officer and eight natives, though apparently rescued, are reported to have died as a result of the accident, and three European officers, six European non-commissioned officers, and 607 natives who until yesterday were unaccounted for must be presumed to have been drowned, the total loss thus being:- 10 Europeans and 615 natives, or 625 lives in all. The difficulty of obtaining authentic information, under the circumstances has been the cause of delay in the doleful tidings; but as the Army Council is making simultaneous announcement of the details I have given to the House – these being all that are available – and as delay might tend to arouse unworthy suspicions that the Government is in a position of concealing facts, I have deemed it right to take the earliest opportunity of informing the House. I wish to say that I at once communicated with the High Commissioner, asking him to see that everything possible was done for the comfort, care, and well-being of the survivors and we are assured that this is being done... ....Particulars of native survivors are being communicated to our Records Office, who will then be in a position to advise relatives of those natives who must be presumed drowned. Magistrates and Native Commissioners have been instructed to inform chiefs, headmen, and people of this calamity so that they may know the truth and not pay heed to idle and mischievous stories which, as experience has unfortunately proved, may be sedulously circulated. The Imperial authorities will pay compensation to native beneficiaries in due course on the scale recognized in our Union Laws. One aspect of the tragedy which hasn't been mentioned are the European burials which presumably were recovered, or taken ashore, on the European coast WIMEREUX COMMUNAL CEMETERY Monamatuga, Thomas 9191 NOORDWIJK GENERAL CEMETERY Kazimula, Natal 9623 Molide, Sitebe 9267 Mtolo, Sikaniso 9999 Zenzile, Arosi 9375 Leboche, Abram 11056 Grave Ref B.12 At Noordwijk only the one grave is listed, the other are commemorated on a 'special memorial' with no indication given as to why, or what form it takes. This leads to the question, as to why these four men are commemorated there and not, if the bodies weren't recovered, on the CWGC memorial at Hollybrook, Southampton; If they where recovered why is the location of the graves not given like the fifth man - has the location of these graves been lost subsequently? NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 Nick If the Mendi names are all commemorated somewhere on a memorial or memorials then that is probably the best situation that we are going to get. The African soil was enriched by the unrecorded bodies of hundreds of thousands of Askari and carriers who served in the Great War. At least the Mendi boys came from a country that now wishes to remember them. Efforts made further north to get governments interested in what their ancestors did during the Great War mostly fail, often because official history starts from Independence Day. In fact in one key country history was removed from the educational curriculum altogether. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dedesomme Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 The sinking of SS Mendi on delvillewood.com The story of the sinking Sinking of SS Mendi SS Mendi Roll of Honour SS Mendi Roll of Honour Noordwijk General Cemetery in which rest five men of the SS Mendi Noordwijk General Cemetery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 ................................ Thanks for that because it just reinforces my argument that nobody gave a toss about black South African troops who are STILL in joint graves whereas everyone else was given a great deal more care? I think you may wish to rethink the reasons you state but better still if you can find me examples of 'white' multiple graves in the UK who still lie together? Firstly, I must tell you that I absolutely agree with you - attitudes which prevailed before and at that time make distressing reading. We cannot re-write history, but we can and should study it and learn from it. However, I don't think I need to rethink the reasons I stated, but I should explain them better. When I said that common (shared) graves were not at all unusual at that time I spoke from experience. I have family members in common graves in Tottenham Cemetery and I feel no shame or anger about it. The lease on plots for private burials had to be purchased. This expense was beyond the resources of many, many families - but they were not paupers. Graves for paupers were a third type of burial. I mentioned the Australian Government's decision because it was notable - all the British casualties buried in common graves in Tottenham Cemetery are still in common graves, under the grass in front of the screen wall. (See my photo in centurian's link). No disrespect was intended, even though their graves are unmarked, and they are commemorated on the screen wall. In this area there are three women - members of the QAIMNS (Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service) - who were not related in any way but share a common grave. They too are commemorated on the screen wall. Again, no disrespect was intended. It was the way then. I therefore don't think it is fair to say that nobody gave a toss about black South African troops who are STILL in joint graves whereas everyone else was given a great deal more care? It was the way then for many people, both civilians and those in service, and they too are still in common (shared) graves. Please be sure to read through the thread which centurian posted a link to see here and particularly read my posts Regards CGM edited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 You asked me for examples of multiple graves where 'whites' still lie together. Again, I am looking at Tottenham Cemetery (as that is where my white relatives lie in common graves) and have selected just one from the many common graves listed on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. A selective search will find all the others. These five all share unmarked grave Gen.7303 and are therefore commemorated on the Screen Wall. They died within a few weeks of each other, so this was not a 'mass' burial. McKEAN, J A Private 8493 08/01/1917 Cheshire Regiment United Kingdom Son of Mrs. Louisa McKean, of 3, Birstall Rd., South Tottenham. BREWSTER, THOMAS JAMES Air Mechanic 2nd Class 40413 16/01/1917 39 Royal Flying Corps United Kingdom Husband of Henrietta Maud Bysouth (formerly Brewster), of 33, Cranbrook Rd., White Hart Lane, Tottenham. McCARTHY, J H Private 10580 16/01/1917 27 Welsh Regiment United Kingdom Son of Maurice and Ellen McCarthy, of 22, Tenterden Rd., Tottenham. PRICE, S O Private 35912 04/02/1917 Devonshire Regiment United Kingdom Husband of Matilda Price, of 1/49, Humpage Rd., Bordesley Green, Birmingham. HUSSEY, GEORGE EDWARD Private T/242294 11/02/1917 24 The Buffs (East Kent Regiment) United Kingdom Son of Henry Thomas Hussey, of 9, Gales Gardens, Bethnal Green, London. Of course, I can't prove to you that all these casualties were white but the balance of probability says they were. Regards CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 Nick, my "thought about this" may differ from your own but I certainly respect your passion for a subject which should never be forgotten. Regards CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 Using experience gained in the 1960s from vacation work in a large municipal cemetery the following needs to be taken into account Burial of people who had died either in Britain or were washed ashore there was ultimately the responsibility of local authorities Even in the 60s mortuary facilities were primitive (and would have been more so in WW1) so that there wasn't too much time to arrange burial, especially if the bodies were already well into putrifaction Grave digging was a skilled job (if the grave is to be of reasonable depth and you don't want the sides to cave in before the burial) and takes time and effort - local authorities were desperately short of manpower in WW1 Where the deceased's family could be contacted in time they might be asked to pay for a single grave otherwise the local authority would see to it but it might not be a single grave, especially if there were a number of bodies and time was pressing In the case of most of the men from SS Mendi contacting their families before burial would be impossible as many of them were using nick names or ascribed names,no family address would be available, the families might well be illiterate etc etc. I note that it has taken decades to properly identify them all. In the case of the baker its possible that with letters in his pocket his family was contacted before burial. Emotional statements without facts to back them up only detract from the discussion. No country treated its black soldiers as well as they should have. South Africa and the USA being the chief, but not the only, offenders but we should not conflate this with the actions of those who dealt with the burials in Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 Thanks for those links marechalfayolle, one which shows the 'Special memorial' at Noordwijk General Cemetery to be a CWGC headstone which may or not cover the actual graves of the four men. Another thing which hasn't really been mentioned is the loss of many of the crew of the Mindi in the collision these, being merchant seamen, don't appear in the CWGC listings, nor does there appear to be any memorial specifically to them. The Court of Inquiry specifically mentioned the gallantry of 'Hugh J. Wilson, quartermaster of the Mendi, and Fourth Engineer Pascoe, of the Mendi, who gave up their seats in the lifeboat, also of Vincent Capler, an ordinary seaman..' all of whom appear to have survived. The Court of Inquiry placed the blame on the Darrup with its captain (Stump) receiving a 12 month suspension of his certificate '...not so much because of his neglect to observe the regulations under war conditions, as because of his failure to comply with section 4221 A, of the Merchant shipping Act, 1894' I have found a list of the the Mendi's crew casualties in this comprehensive pdf (8.2MB) from Wessex Archaeology Click which gives an incredible amount of detailed information together with the sources, not just on the current situation of the wreck, but on the accident itself, the foreign labour corps, the political situation, the ships, the commemorations and a great deal of other background information. Raine, H. 2nd Officer Swall, W.W. 3rd Officer Steele, A.R. Surgeon Bowen, R. Deck Boy Nicol, J. Fireman Johnson, J. Foreman James, T. Trimmer Brown, J. Trimmer Harris, F. Steward Hennesey, W. Steward Holmes, A. Steward Fargher, A. Steward Bogie, W. Steward Adams, L.J. Steward Cross, R. Steward Evans, J. Steward Bailey, J.A. Steward Okill, H. 2nd Cook Oborn, W. 3rd Cook Cooper, W. Baker Morris, W.B. Scullion Mole, H. Marconi Operator James, T. Assistant Baker Framley, R. A.B. (Able Seaman) Carroll, W.H. Gunner Johnson, D. Fireman Johnson, C. Fireman Thompson, S. Trimmer James, J. Trimmer Friday, S.D. Deck Hand Foster, W. Deck Boy Like their passengers, some will have graves, but I suspect the majority will not. May they RIP NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 21 February , 2012 Share Posted 21 February , 2012 One of the early Times reports (that of March 10th reporting the announcement made in Parliament) gave, at its conclusion: The Imperial authorities will pay compensation to native beneficiaries in due course on the scale recognized in our Union Laws. Sadly, I expect, despite the 'Union Law' (presumably this was the South African Union, not Trade Union) this would probably have been minimal. A much later report (November 13th, 1917), also from The Times reporting a legal case for limited liability on behalf of the Darro's owners, gave (my emboldening): ...MR. H.C.S. DUMAS, who appeared for the plaintiffs, said that the loss of life occurred among a native labour battalion: 500-600 out of 800 were drowned. It was anticipated that no claim would be made in a number of instances. Mr. D. Stephens appeared for the owners of the .Mendi MR JUSTICE HILL granted a decree in the terms prayed for. He directed that £87,415 16s. 10d. should be paid into Court, together with interest at the rate of 4 per cent., and he accepted the plaintiff’s undertaking to give bail to such amount as might be asked not exceeding £76,488 13s., in respect of life claims. On a per head basis, and making allowances for monetary value back then, far cry from the likely claims anticipated for the recent Concordia accident: No Compensation culture and lawyers wishing to pursue cases for the benefit of both their clients and their own pockets back in those days. So, I wonder whether any of the families of the lost crew or those of members of the SANL battalions involved ever did ever get any compensation? NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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