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alanthevet

Medal Index Card Interpretation

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alanthevet

I could do with some help in interpreting this MIC.

It belongs to my grand-uncle, KIA while serving with 57 squadron RFC in 1917 (seconded from the 8th Batallion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers).

Pete, the 'Racing Teapot' created this image for me. Thanks to him.

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Alan

post-31-1091540629.jpg

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steve fuller

Hello Alan

Looks like your man:

CWGC lists:

HARTIGAN Edward, Patrick

2nd Ltnt

KIA 21/11/1917, 22 yrs old,

Royal Flying Corps (General list & 57th Squadron)

LONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY, reference IV.F.9

Son of Patrick K. Hartigan, of Clonagh, Reens, Co. Limerick.

(Source cwgc.org)

Hope this is a start Alan. Good luck.

Steve

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steve fuller

Just noticed another thread called 'Patrick McCann'. Seems he also went from RMF to RFC! Never know, you may be helpful to each other?! May be worth a nose ... :huh:

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Some of the confusions and hence crossings out may have been caused through a lack of commumnication between the Air Ministry and the War Office. I have seen similar things where particularly a man is commissioned or transferred to the RFC/RAF leading to a duplicate set being issued and the medal appearing on more than one roll, or the wrong details being inscribed on the medals themselves.

Ian

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alanthevet

You could be right there Ian. It makes sense all right.

What do the numbers refer to, do you know?

Steve. I'll check out the Patrick McCann thread. Thanks.

Alan

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Guest Ian Bowbrick
You could be right there Ian. It makes sense all right.

What do the numbers refer to, do you know?

Steve. I'll check out the Patrick McCann thread. Thanks.

Alan

Alan - They could old War Office reference numbers. Perhaps you should ask Tom Tulloch-Marshall.

Ian

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alanthevet

Tom Tulloch-Marshall - are you out there?

Can you help me?

Alan

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PhilB

Just a note that Officers Died shows him as KIA 20/11/17. Cambrai? Phil B

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Guest Ian Bowbrick
Tom Tulloch-Marshall - are you out there?

Can you help me?

Alan

Send him a personal message.

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall
Tom Tulloch-Marshall - are you out there?

Can you help me?

Alan

Alan - yes, I was out there and now I'm back here - there being the day surgery unit at Guildford hospital and here being, well here. If anything at all might give you the impression that I'm not in the best of moods and therefore maybe inclined to signs of slight tetchiness please disregard it. Having said that, where were you when you were needed ? - alanthe - vet I mean ................ My dad has always claimed that fully paid-up membership of the RCVS put him and the rest of you a cut-above (excuse pun) the butchers of the RCS ............................. we better not continue with that, and apologies in advance to any "butchers" and their NHS colleagues who may be lurking out there, but you really should all start watching Casualty and Holby City etc to see how nice you are meant to be.

There you go - hole digging completed.

Anyway - from what I can see the index card shows first overseas service in the ranks of the RM Fusiliers commencing 17/12/15 - probably 8th Bn given the date, but not guaranteed. Commissioned 3/9/16 (16 ok ?) and kia 20/11/17. On the face of it he was attached RFC, not transferred. It would appear that he has somehow ended up on three different rolls for the 14-15 Star and two rolls for the BW&V Medals - such duplications are uncommon but not rare enough to cause any great surprise. They are of no great consequence as they are simply clerical errors resulting from duplicate submissions resulting from men being moved about - the "error of duplication" being picked up when the index cards were compiled from the roll entries.

There shouldnt really have been any input from the Air Ministry because Edward did not have RAF service and should not have any record cards in the AIR76 service record series at TNA (worth checking though, just in case something slipped through from RFC records handovers in 1918).

It is also possible that his Army / RFC service records may be found in one of the following TNA files, - this is definitely worth checking >

WO339/62970

WO339/73934

WO339/121445

Any one of those could be "miss-indexed" with regards to the forename Patrick.

As for all the sundry War Office memo and authorisation letter / number codes on the index card ............. wonderfull, arent they !

I'll plagiarise (if you dont mind) from the signature notes of the ever helpfull Geoff Hunt of Reading >

To every problem, there is a solution.

If there is no solution, it isn't a problem but a fact of life and we have to live with it.

Issy Bonn, Singer and Comedian, 30 s 40 s & 50 s.

The index card and the other records tell you all you need to know. Fretting over the record office clerk's notations confirming that actions had been taken is unproductive and will achieve no tangible end result. "IV" 's on an index card, with a date, can help you; "RV" 's, with a date can help you, some other notations can sometimes give very minor clues, but none of the sundry "codes" on Edward's card are going to lead you anywhere. Efforts should be concentrated on the WO339 and AIR76 records (with the caveat that the latter will probably lead nowhere and the former are far from guaranteed because the information available on-line is very limited - you need physical checks at TNA).

Nb - if just one more TV weatherman comes on and tells me that tomorrow is going to be a lovely day because the ambient temperature is going to be 30 deg centigrade + then ....................... :angry: (CB should rename that one "tetchy" !).

regards - Tom

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alanthevet

Thanks Tom,

I am sorry if I caught you on a bad day!

Please note that not all of us (vets that is) are James Herriots either. He has a lot to answer for! Reality is not always what you expect it to be!

I have gone from trying to keep animals alive to trying to tell why animals have died. Many say that the animal world is now better off!

I am grateful for your comments relating to the medal index card.

I can now finish with it.

You are right, Edward and his brother Luke joined the 8th Batallion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers. Edward was seconded to the RFC where he was killed in late 1917. Luke was killed in the trenches two months previously.

Thanks a million,

Alan :D

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall
".......................... not all of us (vets that is) are James Herriots either. He has a lot to answer for! Reality is not always what you expect it to be! "

Veterinary reality ?! - that was my "battlefield experience" training - my formative years were peppered with the delights of being dragged round farms to see cows and pigs being slit open and dismantled in farmyards (the possibility of foot & mouth and swine fever always causing much gnashing of teeth) and chickens (dead chickens, foul pest suspected, that is) being fed into power station boilers by the lorry-load. ............. And yes, the world really did smell of Jeyes Fluid :(

good luck with the WO339's - regards - Tom

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