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Bardess

Why would death from heart failure be misadventure?

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Bardess

I'm surprised that it wouldn't be recorded as natural causes. Perhaps it has something to do with his age? 16 year old Albert Edward REACORD, a driver with ASC died on 22/10/17 at Sydenham.

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tipperary

What were the circumstances of his death.Heart failure may have killed him but if something like say accidental electrocution was responcible it may be recorded as misadventure.john

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centurion

They might have been unable to find any cause for the heart attack and so unable to definitely say that it was natural causes. Keeling over at 16 with a heart attack would seem unnatural. We know today that there can be undiagnosed congenital defects that can cause heart failure in one so young but medical knowlege then was not so advanced.

BTW I didn't know you could be a driver in the ASC at 16 in 1917 - is his age correct?

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tipperary

Apparent age on enlistment given as 18 years.john

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Bardess

Yes, he enlisted as an 18 year old but then further on it is noted that he fibbed about his age.

I've been right through the file and, apart from a couple of Minutes, nothing at all regarding the circumstances. Thanks guys

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centurion

Thinking about it if he had collapsed whilst undertaking some strenuous activity they might well have called it misadventure

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exuser1

On the strenous activty note that could well be correct ,if he was a driver and may have been unloading lorrys ect just had a lad here try to move heavy water tank on his own caused a hernia and they missed the ruptured spleen dead in 4 hours !

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Bardess

All very interesting thoughts. Thanks for your input [and the link!]

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ATNOMIS

Old Army Pal took this picture yesterday.

 

Did you all get to what caused his death?

 

Simon

72450141_2698589956826292_907372374549069824_n.jpg

Edited by ATNOMIS

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Retlaw
On 17/02/2012 at 12:06, exuser1 said:

On the strenous activty note that could well be correct ,if he was a driver and may have been unloading lorrys ect just had a lad here try to move heavy water tank on his own caused a hernia and they missed the ruptured spleen dead in 4 hours !

Being a Driver in WW1 didn't have much to do with lorries, more than likely horses,

 

Edited by Retlaw

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Bardess
1 hour ago, ATNOMIS said:

Old Army Pal took this picture yesterday.

 

Did you all get to what caused his death?

 

Simon

 

Thank you, Simon. I'll attach a couple of docs from Ancestry

 

 

Casualty Form.jpg

Death by misadventure.jpg

38 minutes ago, Retlaw said:

Being a Driver in WW1 didn't have much to do with lorries, more than likely horses,

 

As you can see he was a Lorry Driver

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Ron Clifton
47 minutes ago, Retlaw said:

Being a Driver in WW1 didn't have much to do with lorries, more than likely horses,

Not so. The M prefix to his number indicates that he was in the Mechanical Transport section of the ASC. Being at Sydenham tends to bear this out.

 

Ron

Edit: Bardess beat me to it!

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helpjpl
5 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

Not so. The M prefix to his number indicates that he was in the Mechanical Transport section of the ASC. Being at Sydenham tends to bear this out.

 

Ron

Edit: Bardess beat me to it!

 

Albert Edward Reacord.  Born 19 January 1901.

Joined Grove Park Reserve Depot on 17 May 1917 and died of heart failure while on military duty at Sydenham Depot on 22 October :

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-army-service-corps-in-the-first-world-war/army-service-corps-mechanical-transport-depots/

 

JP

 

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RaySearching

Albert  has two newly released WFA pension papers

 

One states cause of death Heart Trouble

Two   Died of  Disease 

 

 

Ray

Edited by RaySearching

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ATNOMIS

Cheers all.

 

Lest We Forget.... Poor Lad..

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Bardess
On 07/10/2019 at 04:06, RaySearching said:

 

One states cause of death Heart Trouble

Two   Died of  Disease 

 

Thanks, Ray, I have them both

 

9 hours ago, ATNOMIS said:

Lest We Forget.... Poor Lad

 

:poppy:

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Hi Di,

Where does it mention misadventure?

In his records or a newspaper report?

Misadventure would have to be a Coroner's verdict after an inquest.

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TEW

Di, post #12, 2nd image.

 

I wondered if an act of misadventure caused him to die of heart trouble.

TEW

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
2 hours ago, TEW said:

Dai, post #12, 2nd image.

 

I wondered if an act of misadventure caused him to die of heart trouble.

TEW

Thanks TEW, I can see it now.

The answer will be in the report on the inquest, which has probably been long lost.

His service record says that a newspaper cutting of the inquest report was sent to the Ministry of Pensions in 1922.

There must therefore be be a contemporary report in a local newspaper from that area that might give an answer.

That could be local to Sydenham or Smethwick.

Anyone have access?

 

Edit:

I presume no-one has unearthed that in the WFA pension records?

 

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

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Bardess

I'll attach what I have from WFA [and I don't have a sub to look at the newspapers at the moment, sadly] and the Inside Sheet

 

 

 

WFA Pension Card 1.jpg

WFA Pension Card 2.jpg

Inside Sheet.jpg

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

I can't explain it.

Misadventure implies something other than a natural death, which is contradicted by the references to "Heart Trouble", and "Died from disease".

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jacks

Hello

 

I have attached the newspaper report of the inquest from the Kentish Mercury 2 Nov 1917.Reacord.jpg.23321f4db9499346d68f50c83a1ac79b.jpg

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
2 hours ago, jacks said:

I have attached the newspaper report of the inquest from the Kentish Mercury 2 Nov 1917.

 

Very interesting, a fascinating insight into how conclusions were reached sometimes in that era.

 

"Status lymphaticus" doesn't exist and didn't exist then.

It was a casual observation that many people who died, in particular youngsters, had an enlarged Thymus gland.

We know know that the thymus gland reaches it's maximum size  during childhood/young adulthood, then involutes.

It is no surprise therefore that if you do a PM on a young person, they will have a large (ish) thymus gland.

But that is not associated with sudden death, which is what they believed then.

 

So the coroner's jury's conclusion was that the enlarged thymus in this boy in association with the 'shock' received during the altercation was responsible for his death, despite evidence that he had an enlarged heart. And in  coming to that erroneous conclusion, they decided that the death was due to misadventure rather than natural causes. That is what his death certificate will probably show.

 

His service record shows he was categorized as A4, meaning he was recognised as not being 19 until January 1920, but that then he would probably be A1 or A2. On that basis, and the fact that there are no abnormal heart sounds or signs at attestation, we can be pretty sure that his heart condition was previously undiagnosed.

 

In reality, at Post Mortem,  the boy clearly had an enlarged heart, but we don't know the reason. No mention is made as to whether there was any evidence of valvular heart disease, say, due to rheumatic fever, so we have to assume that that was not the cause.

To me, with my Mk V Retrospectoscope, I would put Cardiomyopathy top of the list of differential diagnoses. That was/ still is a notorious killer of a small number of adolescent boys and young adults usually occurring on exertion or excercise and with no warning. Sadly, despite there now being useful tools that can diagnose the condition such as ECGs and Echocardiography, the rate of sudden deaths in this group does not seem to have fallen in recent years.

 

Next likely diagnosis might be a viral myocarditis, but I think then there would be a history of a recent viral/febrile illness.

Interestingly, his pension record cards contain entries which give the cause of death, as 'Heart Trouble' ,  and not 'Status Lymphaticus'.

 

Whatever the cause, I would say that the verdict of the court was wrong, and that this was a case of natural causes.

 

 

 

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

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Interested

Could the nosebleed indicate onset of VF?

Not that it matters after all this time.

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