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grantowi

Amending CWGC records

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Tom Lang

Good luck with the submission, Tom

Grant

Cheers.

It'll take a couple of weeks for the 'official' Extract to arrive, then a few more for the CWGC to make a decision.

But I'm sure I'll get there.

Kindest Regards.

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dycer

May I make general observations about amending CWGC records coupled with current Family History research.

The first time I visited the Arras Memorial I noted that the CWGC recorded date of death, of my ancestor, was two years out i.e. 1916 instead of 1918.I wrote to the CWGC querying the date who replied it was a scanning error and would be corrected.

Subsequent Family History research i.e.Birth Certificate reveals that my Ancestor's middle name,recorded on the Arras Memorial ,is not the one he was "born with"although it was his accepted "Middle Name" when he was mentioned by name by those, within the Family, who knew him.

Obviously I could submit his Birth Certificate to the CWGC requesting that the "error" be amended but to do that ,would be I feel, be doing "those who knew him a disservice".

Equally I am aware,through the CWGC and Forum,that the Family returned the form requesting his age and Parental details but did not return, the one,I assume the Family received,concerning his Brother.

Through Family History research I can "fill out the blanks" to the CWGC, on the Brother i.e.age and Parents.

I pointed out to the CWGC,via this Forum,that the Cemetery photograph of the Brother,was wrong, on their web-site and it was quickly corrected!

Should I.,therefore,correct, through Family History research,incorrect information supplied to the CWGC, post WW1,or fill in blanks that were overlooked,,in the 1920's,but now seem so important, for correctness in historical objective research?

My feeling is,leave well alone and allow future generations to find the historical errors and leave the CWGC alone to "do their duty" as laid down in their Charter,however,much maligned through modern Family History research!

George

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grantowi

Can't you email them a copy ?

Thats what I did with the papers when I got my two added to the roll

Grant

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Tom Lang

Can't you email them a copy ?

Thats what I did with the papers when I got my two added to the roll

Grant

Yes, I'll do that when the 'official' Extract gets to me. It takes a couple of weeks or so for ScotlandsPeople to make a certified Extract and post it to me.

When I get it, I'll scan it and email it to CWGC.

Did I say that right?

Kindest Regards.

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grantowi

Sorry, I thought you said that you could download a copy :-(

Grant

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Tom Lang

Sorry, I thought you said that you could download a copy :-(

Grant

Maybe I'm not saying this clearly, so I'll try again to be sure.

I've found the 'Service Returns' Army Form W. 3231 naming my grandfather on the ScotlandsPeople website - this is a list of names of men Killed in Action or Died of Wounds.

I have downloaded this form from the ScotlandsPeople website.

To get an 'official' Extract of Death (a death certificate) which is fully authenticated by the Scottish General Registrar's Office, I have to order that separately because that is personally signed by the Registrar.

But I have to wait for this document to arrive in the post.

It is this 'official' document that CWGC will accept as proof - and this is the document that I can attach as an email, after It gets to me via the postman.

It's Friday... lol

Kindest Regards.

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grantowi

With you now :-)

Thats what happens when you call a piece of paper two names: Death certificate = Extract of Death

I normally catch on in the end :-)

Grant

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Tom Lang

May I make general observations about amending CWGC records coupled with current Family History research.

The first time I visited the Arras Memorial I noted that the CWGC recorded date of death, of my ancestor, was two years out i.e. 1916 instead of 1918.I wrote to the CWGC querying the date who replied it was a scanning error and would be corrected.

Subsequent Family History research i.e.Birth Certificate reveals that my Ancestor's middle name,recorded on the Arras Memorial ,is not the one he was "born with"although it was his accepted "Middle Name" when he was mentioned by name by those, within the Family, who knew him.

Obviously I could submit his Birth Certificate to the CWGC requesting that the "error" be amended but to do that ,would be I feel, be doing "those who knew him a disservice".

Equally I am aware,through the CWGC and Forum,that the Family returned the form requesting his age and Parental details but did not return, the one,I assume the Family received,concerning his Brother.

Through Family History research I can "fill out the blanks" to the CWGC, on the Brother i.e.age and Parents.

I pointed out to the CWGC,via this Forum,that the Cemetery photograph of the Brother,was wrong, on their web-site and it was quickly corrected!

Should I.,therefore,correct, through Family History research,incorrect information supplied to the CWGC, post WW1,or fill in blanks that were overlooked,,in the 1920's,but now seem so important, for correctness in historical objective research?

My feeling is,leave well alone and allow future generations to find the historical errors and leave the CWGC alone to "do their duty" as laid down in their Charter,however,much maligned through modern Family History research!

George

Hello George and thanks for your comments.

I think that the CWGC works on the principle that the military records are the main source of their information.

I'm sure that the Army, Navy, etc. collected a soldiers date of birth etc when the individual 'signed up'.

It is also the case that many gave false names and dates of birth, for many reasons. This seem's to be the main contention between families' records and the CWGC's records.

In the case of Scottish Regiments, their Service Records were moved to London between WW1 and WW2. But almost all of those records were destroyed during the German blitz on London during WW2.

So for many families today, there is no 'official' military records to work with.

In my case, I'm attempting to add to the CWGC record - not to change anything they have (they don't have his age at time of death).

I am perfectly happy that the CWGC are extra careful before making amendments, and in the case of Scottish Regiments, it is family records which have proven to be a good source.

I disagree that we should leave this for future generations to find.

It has taken me a long time to find this stuff, and it may get lost forever if I don't play my part in making sure that it sees the light of day, and to as many people as possible, including future generations.

Also, the document I have now found is a military record - Army Form W. 3231. That is now the 5th military document that I have found showing (some or all of) my grandfather's name, rank, number, age, battalion and regiment, date of death.

So I'd like to think that by sending copies of these to the CWGC, they become part of their records for all to see, but in my grandfather's case as added 'proof' of his age at the time of his death and not 'blank'.

Even though CWGC don't amend their 'public' record, those military documents are now in their 'digital' records concerning my grandfather.

I can't remember which specific year, but in the very early 80's I visited the CWGC in Maidenhead (before the advent of the PC and the internet).

The only information I had was his name, number, battalion and date of death. I gave this to the guy there and he asked me to wait a few minutes.

True to his word, he came back in a few minutes with a document with all the details of the cemetery, etc where my grandfather is buried - map and all.

I was truly astonished and was so grateful of the work that the CWGC do. I for one am a supporter, but I do understand that for others there are 'errors' (of many kinds) in the records.

The 'digital age' has removed the need for searching through all the paper forms, and the exchange of information at the touch of a button.

It can only get faster and better, and I hope that future generations will find the personal histories of all the brave men & women quicker than I did for one or two

Kindest Regards.

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Tom Lang

Here's a photo of the Army Form W 3231. My grandafther is the last on this page.

post-87018-0-79876200-1347721728_thumb.j

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David_Underdown

As to names, don't forget that it's really only the relatively recent laws against money laundering and the like that have made confirming a change of name via deed poll or similar essential (for practical purposes). The old common law principle was that you could call yourself what you liked so long as there was no intent to deceive. So even if the name on CWGC doesn't match the birth certificate, I'd be inclined to leave well alone

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Tom Lang

As to names, don't forget that it's really only the relatively recent laws against money laundering and the like that have made confirming a change of name via deed poll or similar essential (for practical purposes). The old common law principle was that you could call yourself what you liked so long as there was no intent to deceive. So even if the name on CWGC doesn't match the birth certificate, I'd be inclined to leave well alone

David,

That's another very valid point to remember, although being the army, common law didn't apply.

The army still is a law unto itself. They were after recruits (in great numbers) and many signed up under false names or with false dates of birth for many reasons.

A bureaucracy of that size inevitably produces spelling 'errors' and transcription 'mistakes' from one document to the next.

So without the original attestation papers (which could be used) to identify 'differences' in subsequent army papers, it's a difficult task either way.

It also gives you the chance to admire the 'army' of clerks who maintained these mountains of paper.

Kindest Regards.

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John_Hartley

many signed up under false names

And, in the usual course of events, CWGC/MoD will commemorate them with the name they served under - although they will sometimes record it as "Bloggs, served as Smith".

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Tom Lang

More good news John.

Thanks (and thanks too for the link to the 'In From the Cold Project' website.

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RaySearching

And, in the usual course of events, CWGC/MoD will commemorate them with the name they served under - although they will sometimes record it as "Bloggs, served as Smith".

Now here in one i have recently researched now what is the chance of getting (served as Wilson true name Bosomworth) added to the records

Private JAMES WILSON ( true name James Alfred Bosomworth having served under an alias)

4806 4th Bn Yorkshire Regiment

James Alfred Bosomworth enlisted In Middlesbrough on the 6th September 1914 into the Durham Light Infantry

12th Service Battalion (Pte 13851) giving his occupation as iron works labourer and his address as 16 Eve Street Middlesbrough

he was discharged 146 days later on the 29th January 1915 as medically unfit Para 392 iii © Kings Regulations

Undeterred James re-enlisted into the 4th Bn Yorkshire Regiment using the alias “James Wilson”

(his first forename and his mother’s maiden name)

James was wounded in action during fighting at Kemmel Shelters and died of his wounds aged 20

on 10th June 1916

He was the son of Frank a carpenters labourer and Mary Bosomworth (nee Wilson) of 16 Eve Street Middlesbrough

The couple married in Middlesbrough in 1894

James can be found on the 1911 census residing with his parents and siblings at 16 Eve Street Middlesbrough

employed as a steel strip mill hand

His brother Frank also served with the Yorkshire regiment throughout the war, He survived and was demobilised in 1919

Whilst he is commemorated under his true name on Middlesbrough war memorial his headstone in Longuenesse Souvenir cemetery

commemorates him under his alias James Wilson, The authorities presumably uninformed of the deception

Born and enlisted Middlesbrough

LONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY

feel to take it on if you wish

regards Ray

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Tom Lang

An update -

I paid for an 'official' Extract of Army Form W 3231 (above) and after submission to the CWGC have now agreed to alter my grandfather's name from "R. Lang" to "Robert Lang", and they have updated their website to reflect this change.

That's what I consider progress.

Now even though his age (23) is on the Army Form, his age on the website is still blank.

I have now obtained 'official' Extracts of Birth of both my grandfather and grandmother, and their marriage certificate.

I have sent these to the CWGC for their consideration, in conjunction with the earlier documents I have submitted, as proof of his age and Next-of-Kin.

The young man I am in email contact with at CWGC is now on holiday until the end of the month, so I'll post another update when I get any news.

Fingers crossed...

Kindest Regards.

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Tom Lang

An overdue update:

The 'official' Extract of Army Form W 3231 (above) was not enough to link my grandfather to the records held by the CWGC and the records I have previously submitted.

Having learned of the Western Front Association's acquisition of the Pension Cards and Ledgers ( http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/about-the-wfa/175-pension-records/2960-great-war-pension-record-cards-and-ledgers-deeper-understanding.html ), I applied with the appropriate fee and BINGO - they found the Pension Card naming my grandfather, grandmother and father.

I submitted the Pension Card to the CWGC and they have only yesterday confirmed that they will amend their records to show my grandfather's next-of-kin and his age at the time of his death.

Additionally, the CWGC will add his age to the inscription on his gravestone.

This is tremendous news for my family, and I wish to thank the CWGC and the WFA for their patience and perseverance with this process.

For this reason, I HIGHLY recommend the service being offered by the WFA.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

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David Tattersfield

Thanks for the feedback Tom. It is fantastic that the records that we turned up have led to such a positive outcome.

David

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entrenched

Quote Tom Lang "Having learned of the Western Front Association's acquisition of the Pension Cards and Ledgers ( http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/about-the-wfa/175-pension-records/2960-great-war-pension-record-cards-and-ledgers-deeper-understanding.html ), I applied with the appropriate fee and BINGO"

Congratulations on a fantastic result Tom; but you seem to be side-stepping the actual cost, which will a stumbling block for many people.
The WFA site quotes these fees-
Fees for LookupsFirst successful lookup: £25.00Successive successful lookups (requested on the same form up to five lookups in total): £5.00 eachNB: a successful lookup includes at least one card or ledger entry for the combatant in question.If no records are found at all, you will receive:£15.00 refund for the first lookup. £3.00 for any successive lookups.NB if your first lookup is not found, then the £25 first lookup charge will be transferred to any successive lookups. Similarly, refunds will be applied in the same way.Print, packing and postage (nb only if required; files will usually be sent by email): £7.50.

So, assuming success, the minimum expense is £25 or £32.50 for older folk without computer access

I wish I had deeper pockets.

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Tom Lang

Thanks for the feedback Tom. It is fantastic that the records that we turned up have led to such a positive outcome.

David

David,

It took me some time and effort to provide documentary proof of my grandfather's first name.

The CWGC did finally change his initial "R" to "Robert" based on the family records I provided.

I'd like to thank you publicly for the Pension Card Lookup Service.

Without the Pension Card document the CWGC would still have no link to my grandfather's next-of-kin or his age at time of death.

I look forward to seeing the 'updates' to their website, and I will personally take a photograph of his gravestone when I visit next year.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

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Tom Lang
Quote Tom Lang "Having learned of the Western Front Association's acquisition of the Pension Cards and Ledgers ( http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/about-the-wfa/175-pension-records/2960-great-war-pension-record-cards-and-ledgers-deeper-understanding.html ), I applied with the appropriate fee and BINGO"

Congratulations on a fantastic result Tom; but you seem to be side-stepping the actual cost, which will a stumbling block for many people.
The WFA site quotes these fees-
Fees for LookupsFirst successful lookup: £25.00Successive successful lookups (requested on the same form up to five lookups in total): £5.00 eachNB: a successful lookup includes at least one card or ledger entry for the combatant in question.If no records are found at all, you will receive:£15.00 refund for the first lookup. £3.00 for any successive lookups.NB if your first lookup is not found, then the £25 first lookup charge will be transferred to any successive lookups. Similarly, refunds will be applied in the same way.Print, packing and postage (nb only if required; files will usually be sent by email): £7.50.

So, assuming success, the minimum expense is £25 or £32.50 for older folk without computer access

I wish I had deeper pockets.

Hello entrenched,

These are personal decisions that only you can make.

I was able to pay the fees, and I don't consider them overly expensive for the service being offered.

The WFA is a volunteer group.

The fees cover the travel expenses, etc. for someone to go and search through over 5 million records.

I'm sure you'll agree that it takes a long time to do this.

I also consider myself in with the "older folk" as I'm an OAP.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

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auchonvillerssomme

Search through 5 million records, really?

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Tom Lang

Search through 5 million records, really?

From what I understand there are over 5 million of these Cards and Ledger records.

  • Other Ranks Died (almost a million individual records)
  • Widows and Dependents of Other Ranks Died (over a million records)
  • Other Ranks Survived: Requested/Rejected/Receiving Pension (over 2.5 million records)
  • Officers Survived and Officers' Widows (approximately 150,000 records)
  • Merchant Naval Cards (about 5,000 records)

Anyone entitled to a pension is included.

1. Disabled Soldiers

2. Disabled Naval Ratings

3. Disabled Airmen

4. Widows

5. Dependents

6. APD cases (Alternative Pension: Disablement)

7. APW cases (Alternative Pension: Widow)

http://britishgenes.blogspot.com/2012/11/world-war-1-pension-cards-saved.html

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/about-the-wfa/175-pension-records/2960-great-war-pension-record-cards-and-ledgers-deeper-understanding.html

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