seaforth78 Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 I am researching an officer of the Welsh Guards who served from c. 1915 with the intials of PSA. Any help please? Thank you. Tempaire78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 I am researching an officer of the Welsh Guards who served from c. 1915 with the initials of PSA. You probably need to give a bit more background to this before anyone can help - how do you come to be researching just the initials, I assume that they are on something, to know what would be helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 Being a single-battalion regiment in the GW, Appendix J of the regimental history lists service of all officers. There is none with those initials, so far as I can see. I tried A as a surname, S-A as a surname, and even P as a surname with the forenames SA. Nothing obvious turned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 29 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2012 I am about to purchase a Welsh Guards Officers sword which was clearly made in 1915-19 because the panels on the blade were totally blank devoid of their customary Battle Honours save for the intials PSA and the device of the new Regiment. Guards Regiments always added their new honours after each conflict. I am quite sure this officer came in from another Regiment in 1915. Thank you all for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 Anything following the letters PSA ? Numbers 45:3 perhaps ? "Gird on thy sword O might warrior" Psalm 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 I am quite sure this officer came in from another Regiment in 1915. Thank you all for your help. Well, I'd be surprised that the History, which is very detailed and thorough, missed him off. He may well have joined just post-war, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 I am about to purchase a Welsh Guards Officers sword which was clearly made in 1915-19 because the panels on the blade were totally blank devoid of their customary Battle Honours save for the intials PSA and the device of the new Regiment. Guards Regiments always added their new honours after each conflict. I am quite sure this officer came in from another Regiment in 1915. Thank you all for your help. No inscribed battle honours doesn't place it in the 1915-19 time frame. It took until the early '20s for the names of battles to be decided (there was a Battle Nomenclature Committee) then honours were awarded. As the number of honours to be emblazoned was limited to 10 for the Great War, regiments took their time in choosing which would be borne on the colours. 1WG would have been granted colours in 1915 on formation I suppose (they certainly carried colours on their first Kings Guard on St Davids Day 1915, after being formed on 26 Feb IIRC), and probably would not have renewed them until about 1940 if the usual time frame were followed. However, the regiment did it's first troop in 1928, so I guess they would have had new colours prior to that. When the regiment was formed in 1915 it was manned by volunteers from all the other Foot Guards regiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 When the regiment was formed in 1915 it was manned by volunteers from all the other Foot Guards regiments. Not entirely so. The senior NCO and WO ranks were taken from other Guards regiments (mostly Grenadiers and Coldstream), and about 500 men in training for those two regiments transferred to the Welsh Guards. However, by the time the regiment took the field, the majoirty had been recruited direct to the Welsh Guards. As Dudley Ward comments in his history: Recruiting was easy, and the only advertisment required was such as would draw the Welshmen who wished to join the army into the new Welsh Guards. With this object in view a recruiting campaign was started throughout Wales... Incidentally, the Coloirs were consecrated on 3rd August 1915 (exactly 40 years before my birthday, as it hapens). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 29 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2012 Would the officers, like in PSA's case, have been from the Guards as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 29 January , 2012 Share Posted 29 January , 2012 Not entirely so. The senior NCO and WO ranks were taken from other Guards regiments (mostly Grenadiers and Coldstream), Indeed, and the regiment adopted most Grenadier customs. However, it also took volunteers from other regiments, and Regimental Number 1 (later 273001) was RSM Stevenson, the immortal "Stevo" ex-Scots Guards, whose widow presented me with my leek at Chelsea Barracks on St Davids Day 1965, shortly before we left for South Arabia. That was the 50th anniversary SDD and I met many of the men who had gone into the regiments first action at Loos - God willing I should make the centenary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 22 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2012 In reference to my earlier forgotten request, can anyone well versed with the Welsh Guards locate an officer with the intials PSA please? Surely being a young Regiment of one battalion he cannot be hard to find ? I have a sword made circa c.1915 with his intails on the sword panel with blade being battle honourless, so obviously we can date this sword from 1915-1922. I really would appreciate what the old hands here could do for me. Many thanks!! tempaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 The Welsh Guards had a 2nd (Reserve) Battalion as the below CWGC list will show (via Geoffs engine) Looking at the medal cards there does not seem to be any likely candidates for this Officer. Steve has covered the History. Possibly he remained in the UK then? 115 COX TG 2701 2ND RESERVE BN 26/07/1916 WELSH GUARDS 148 DAVIES J 2570 2ND RESERVE BN 29/03/1918 WELSH GUARDS 203 ENTWISLE JH 3304 2ND RESERVE BN 09/03/1917 WELSH GUARDS 218 EVANS B 345 2ND RESERVE BN 11/08/1920 WELSH GUARDS 249 FOSTER F 2335 2ND RESERVE BN 17/01/1917 WELSH GUARDS 280 GRIFFITHS G 1955 2ND RESERVE BN 01/08/1917 WELSH GUARDS 324 HENTON JL 113 2ND RESERVE BN 06/03/1917 WELSH GUARDS 343 HORNE EG 3431 2ND RESERVE BN 04/01/1917 WELSH GUARDS 369 JAMES S 2635 2ND RESERVE BN 02/04/1916 WELSH GUARDS 480 LLOYD A 5732 2ND RESERVE BN 25/07/1918 WELSH GUARDS 512 MILLINGTON W 5684 2ND RESERVE BN 27/06/1918 WELSH GUARDS 627 PUGH A 3260 2ND RESERVE BN 17/02/1917 WELSH GUARDS 661 ROBERTS WT 2137 2ND RESERVE BN 21/01/1921 WELSH GUARDS 726 SULLIVAN T 636 2ND RESERVE BN 30/12/1915 WELSH GUARDS 783 TURNER WT 456 2ND RESERVE BN 18/10/1918 WELSH GUARDS 843 WILLIAMS F 5773 2ND RESERVE BN 19/07/1918 WELSH GUARDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 In reference to my earlier forgotten request, can anyone well versed with the Welsh Guards locate an officer with the intials PSA please? Surely being a young Regiment of one battalion he cannot be hard to find ? I have a sword made circa c.1915 with his intails on the sword panel with blade being battle honourless, so obviously we can date this sword from 1915-1922. I really would appreciate what the old hands here could do for me. Many thanks!! tempaire I have had success in finding an officer by just using his initials, I went on line, and for a very resonable cost, was able to download the official Regimental Officers Lists for a given year. For the Officer I was searching, I purchased the lists for 5 years, 1914 - 1919. Having printed out the lists, which I have for future reference, I was able to go down the list line by line looking for those officers with those same initials. The Coldstream Guards officers lists for 1916, were only 3.1/2 pages of names. In your case, you will need the Welsh Guards lists for probably 1915 - 1919, and go from there. The officer's list is broken down by rank, with sections for Lt.Cols - Majors - Captains - Lieutenants - 2nd Lieutenants - giving the Surname, followed usually by complete initials. In your case you would look for Surname " A ", followed by initials P. S. I am attaching a full sheet so you can see what the front sheet looks like, plus an enlarged sheet so you can see how the individual officers are listed. Please let me know if you need any other information. Regards, Leo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Here is the link to the website I used to buy the Army Lists :- www.youroldbooksandmaps.co.uk I remember the PDF downloads were cheaper than having the lists sent to me on a CD. Although they sell complete package lists covering numerous Regiments in one file, for your project, you will just need the yearly lists for the Welsh Guards only. You can buy each year separately. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 23 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Dear Leo and Steve, Thanks very much for your help and I indeed took your suggestion Leo and downloaded (at least for the Welsh Guards for now) the lists from 1916-1919) and it sadly shows no PSA. Now, It had gotten me thinking, which query I will relay to Mr. Robert Wilkinson-Latham tomorrow, is that this; because officers came in from other regiments did: 1.The Welsh Guards did not have their peculiar Guards sword produced until 1919? 2. Officers being from Regiments having made do their existing swords (and the Army by early 1915 had asked ordered officers to send their swords back the UK by this point) until the regulation Welsh Guards pattertn could be ready to be produced. 3. This PSA chap (as seems likely now) was a post war officer straight out in 1919, hence the absence of battle honours on the blade. I will let you know what Mr. Wilkinson says tomorrow. Good night tempaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Dear Leo and Steve, Thanks very much for your help and I indeed took your suggestion Leo and downloaded (at least for the Welsh Guards for now) the lists from 1916-1919) and it sadly shows no PSA. Now, It had gotten me thinking, which query I will relay to Mr. Robert Wilkinson-Latham tomorrow, is that this; because officers came in from other regiments did: 1.The Welsh Guards did not have their peculiar Guards sword produced until 1919? 2. Officers being from Regiments having made do their existing swords (and the Army by early 1915 had asked ordered officers to send their swords back the UK by this point) until the regulation Welsh Guards pattertn could be ready to be produced. 3. This PSA chap (as seems likely now) was a post war officer straight out in 1919, hence the absence of battle honours on the blade. I will let you know what Mr. Wilkinson says tomorrow. Good night tempaire I am sorry to hear that your first look at the officer lists did not produce a result. If you are sure this man was a Welsh Guards officer, it must only be a matter of checking the most appropriate years before you find his name appearing in the list. Please remember, some names appear for several years running albeit that their rank could change. Is there any other information on the sword - a maker's name and address ? - serial number ? - Royal Coat of Arms for KGV - KEV111 - KGV1 ? Regards, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 23 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Leo, This PSA man must have been a Welsh Guards officer because the sword is a Welsh Guards sword. Since he either joined directly from Sandhurst or else transferred from another Regiment (in that case he would have had to order the new Welsh Guard pattern sword) this sword confirms he is a Welsh Guards officer. I think now, he must have been post 1918 officer as I dont see anyone matching him on the Welsh Guards lists for 1915-1918 with PSA which are quite short to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Leo, This PSA man must have been a Welsh Guards officer because the sword is a Welsh Guards sword. Since he either joined directly from Sandhurst or else transferred from another Regiment (in that case he would have had to order the new Welsh Guard pattern sword) this sword confirms he is a Welsh Guards officer. I think now, he must have been post 1918 officer as I dont see anyone matching him on the Welsh Guards lists for 1915-1918 with PSA which are quite short to begin with. You may want to jump ahead a couple of years, and try the Welsh Guards lists for say 1920 and 1923, or 1921 and 1925, or whichever years you think best. He must be in the lists. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 It occurs to me to ask if you've contacted the Regiment? Try the Guards Museum in Birdcage Walk (if you've not already done so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 23 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2012 They couldn't be bothered with something like. One needs a researcher for such a tedious task. I wish I go myself but alas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 February , 2012 Share Posted 23 February , 2012 They couldn't be bothered with something like. One needs a researcher for such a tedious task. I wish I go myself but alas! I have all the Army Lists for 1923, obviously including the Welsh Guards, I shall go through the lists looking for initials P. S. with a surname commencing with A, hopefully we may get a match. Regards, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 23 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2012 Dear Leo, You are a Godsend! Thank you for this. By the way I got a reply from Robert Wilkinson-Latham on Welsh Guards swords: "I attach a sketch of proposed badges for the Welsh Guard's hilt that Wilkinsons proposed. Eventually the leak on its own was selected. The Welsh Guards was raised on 26 February 1915 by order of King George V so I cannot see any 'regimental' swords for at least a year or so because of the War. The earliest I can find from a quick search of the details is sword `no 54568 of 2nd October 1917 and sold to a Welsh Guards officer J.A. Pugh." So, very few sword for the Welsh were made by the time the war ended. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 February , 2012 Share Posted 24 February , 2012 Dear Leo, You are a Godsend! Thank you for this. By the way I got a reply from Robert Wilkinson-Latham on Welsh Guards swords: "I attach a sketch of proposed badges for the Welsh Guard's hilt that Wilkinsons proposed. Eventually the leak on its own was selected. The Welsh Guards was raised on 26 February 1915 by order of King George V so I cannot see any 'regimental' swords for at least a year or so because of the War. The earliest I can find from a quick search of the details is sword `no 54568 of 2nd October 1917 and sold to a Welsh Guards officer J.A. Pugh." So, very few sword for the Welsh were made by the time the war ended. " I checked the Army Lists for 1923 ( All Regiments ), and specifically The Welsh Guards, and whilst I could find no listing for a P. S. A. under The Welsh Guards, in the General Index, which lists all officers in all Regiments for 1923, I did find a Lieutenant P. S. Ayers M.C. ( Royal Horse Artillery ) and also a P. S. Akroyd ( University Candidate ). I could not read the date of Lt. P. S. Ayers' commission clearly, but it looks like 1. 6. 1914. He was also awarded the Military Cross. Obviously, you need to check to see if either of these officers had any previous connection with the Welsh Guards ? Regards, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 24 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2012 I think I found him Leo. This is from the War Diary of the Welsh Guards on Mobilization September 1939 - Appendix 1 APPENDIX 1:- Nominal Roll of Officers Available, or who may be Available for - 2nd Battalion WELSH GUARDS (In order of Seniority):- Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Alexander STANIER, Bt. M.C. Major G.St.V.J. VIGOR Major W.D.C. GREENACRE, M.V.O. Major G.W. BROWNING Major W.L. BONN, D.S.O., M.C. Major H.T. RICE Captain J.C.W. LEWIS Captain H.M.C. JONES-MORTIMER Captain R.B. HODGKINSON Captain J.E. FASS Captain C.P. VAUGHAN Captain B.T.V. HAMBROUGH Captain J.A.D. PERRINS, M.C. Captain A.M. BANKIER, D.S.O., M.C. (Staff Coll) Captain T.A. OAKSHOTT Captain C.R. WIGAN (Depot) Captain P. DILBEROUGLUE (R.T.O.) Captain R.M.V. PONSONBY (A.R.P.) Captain J.H.V. HIGGON Captain L.S.F. ELLIS, C.V.O., C.B.E., D.S.O., M.C. Lieutenant & Adjutant R.C. ROSE PRICE Lieutenant J. DUNCAN Lieutenant C.A. la T. LEATHAM Lieutenant G.H.W. CLARKE Lieutenant R.C. SHARPLES Lieutenant W.H. CARTER Lieutenant A.C. DANIELS (R.T.O.) Lieutenant H.C.N. HILL, M.C. Lieutenant W.H. DOWDING Lieutenant P.S. ACKROYD (Depot) Lieutenant T.L.R. HARDY Lieutenant C.H.R. HEBER-PERCY Lieutenant J.G. MITCHELL (Officers Cadet Training Unit) Lieutenant R.W. WILLIAMS-WYNN (T.A.) Lieutenant J.W.E. TORBETT (Returned Home) Lieutenant Sir F.S.W. WINNINGTON, Bt. Lieutenant J.A. MEADE Lieutenant The Honourable C. FURNESS Lieutenant J.F. GRESHAM Lieutenant C.A.St.J.P. HARMSWORTH Lieutenant E.C. DICKENS Lieutenant P.T. PETLEY Lieutenant J.D.A. SYRETT Lieutenant G.W. RIDEHALGH Lieutenant R.C. TWINING Lieutenant E.G.F. BEDINGFELD Lieutenant P.S. BLACK Lieutenant C.F. CRAWSHAY Lieutenant P.J. McCALL Lieutenant BARON de RUTSEN Lieutenant M.W.T. LEATHAM Lieutenant A.J. PEARCE-SEROCOLD 2/ Lieutenant A.McN. PERRINS 2/ Lieutenant I.H.T. GARNETT-ORME 2/ Lieutenant B.E. RICKETT 2/ Lieutenant J.A.B. RODERICK 2/ Lieutenant P.F. HANBURY 2/ Lieutenant J.B.L. FITZWILLIAMS 2/ Lieutenant R. LLEWELLYN 2/Lieutenant R.B. STEWART-BROWN 2/Lieutenant P.W.R. HELY-HUTCHINSON 2/Lieutenant J.J. GURNEY 2/Lieutenant J.N. MARTIN-SMITH 2/Lieutenant C.N. JANSON 2/Lieutenant W.G.M. WORRALL 2/Lieutenant H.B.T. COX, M.P. 2/Lieutenant N.M. DANIEL 2/Lieutenant R.C.L. FITZWILLIAMS 2/Lieutenant R.L. PATTINSON 2/Lieutenant M.A.L. FOX-PITT-RIVERS 2/Lieutenant J.D. GIBSON-WATT LORD DELAMERE EARL of IDDESLEIGH R.H. RUSSEL, Esq. S.F. EMANUEL, Esq. R.A. COBBOLD, Esq. G.R. UPJOHN, Esq. T. GUNDY, Esq. M.P. COOPER, Esq. J.P.T. BURCHEL, Esq., M.C. P.R. SPERLING, Esq. Lieutenant & Quartermaster Mr. W.L. BRAY, D.C.M., M.M. Lieutenant & Quartermaster Mr. L. POWNALL I wonder after receiving his commision in the Welsh Guards in 1923, he stayed for a few years, then leave for the City and later come to his old rank on declaration of war in 1939? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 February , 2012 Share Posted 24 February , 2012 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/33309/pages/5734/page.pdf FOOT GUARDS. W. G'ds.—2nd Lt. P. S. Akroyd to be Lt.4th Sept. 1927. He played cricket quite a lot. You can get him in Times till about 1937 And he was at Eton in 1919 click cricket archive so you should be able to get his background from Eton records - someone here should have that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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