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Remembered Today:

Great War Webley Revolvers (Mks VI, V & VI)


Simon127

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LF - with respect, you have rather shifted your position I think.

Your current statment: "that conversions of the Mk.V1 were not routinely carried out by the British Government/Army, but were done unofficially, be that privately or commercially, and that those private or commercial conversions, could have been done either in the U.K. or the U.S.A as early as the 1950's. I think that is a fair statement to make." is, as you say, an eminently reasonable and one with which I would happily concur, but it is completely at odds, in my opinion, with your original unequivocal claim that:

Many Mk.V1's were also converted by the British Army to take the more available U.S. .45 cartridge.

which was the one over which doubt was initially, if somewhat bluntly, cast.

Regardless - I have learnt a lot about pistol calibres today!

Cheers,

Chris

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LF - with respect, you have rather shifted your position I think.

Your current statment: "that conversions of the Mk.V1 were not routinely carried out by the British Government/Army, but were done unofficially, be that privately or commercially, and that those private or commercial conversions, could have been done either in the U.K. or the U.S.A as early as the 1950's. I think that is a fair statement to make." is, as you say, an eminently reasonable and one with which I would happily concur, but it is completely at odds, in my opinion, with your original unequivocal claim that:

which was the one over which doubt was initially, if somewhat bluntly, cast.

Regardless - I have learnt a lot about pistol calibres today!

Cheers,

Chris

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Chris,

You are correct. Currently, being without the text book reference, I must be willing to make that statement change, as at present I cannot support it.

If I find the reference book, then rest assured I will revisit the topic.

The nice thing about this Forum, is there is an honest exchange of information and views, and although I have been collecting for some 30 years, since I joined the Forum, I have learnt a mass of new information willingly provided to me by other members, and with this thread I have new information regarding .455 ammuntion, and hopefully members enjoyed viewing my Webleys, sounds like a win win.

LF.

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Chris,

You are correct. Currently, being without the text book reference, I must be willing to make that statement change, as at present I cannot support it.

If I find the reference book, then rest assured I will revisit the topic.

The nice thing about this Forum, is there is an honest exchange of information and views, and although I have been collecting for some 30 years, since I joined the Forum, I have learnt a mass of new information willingly provided to me by other members, and with this thread I have new information regarding .455 ammuntion, and hopefully members enjoyed viewing my Webleys, sounds like a win win.

LF.

100% agree!

Also very impressed with your Webleys - especially given the price that they appear to exchange for these days, no small investment there. I am kicking myself for not picking up the $100 RIC model in 1995 or the $200 MkV in 2000...oh well....

Are the boxes you display them in original to the weapons or something that you made/obtained separely?

Chris

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I didn't find much to argue about in the revolver-shooting in 'Birdsong', but the orders given during the rifle practice sequence were loopy. The craziest thing was giving the order to push down the charger contents and then open bolts. After (possibly?) unloading at the end, the shooters put their safeties on with cocked actions, and then the unfortunate soldier was sent forward to check the targets... :o No range I've shot on would ever have allowed that, even in more relaxed days than ours.

Of course, a lot of this may be down to editing. I'd guess re-enactors may have been used for much of the original filming - at least as advisors - and they probably would have taken some trouble to get it right.

Mik, according to the Radio Times the WW1 stuff was done in Budapest/Hungary, so I'd be very suprised if any reenactors had anything to do with the general apalling nature of that scene, and would lay the blame on the script writer or military advisor on the spot (who even if he knows his stuff can only advise, and advice can always be ignored). To give a similar example, the Ch4 documentary on the Somme back in 2006 was mostly done abroad (Poland IIRC), and the background extras for the soldiers were Polish Army soldiers. Cheaper, but you pay peanuts, you get monkeys unfortunately...

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Just to throw another 'log on the fire' it really doesn't matter a great deal which publication Lancashire Fusilier saw the reference to conversions because his recall of what he read coincides with mine in every detail. We can therefore conclude that the publication does exist. Let's wait and see.

khaki

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Chris,

Yes, Webleys are now highly prized and much sought after, and not before time.

The cases are currently available, and the insides are custom fitted for each different revolver.

I enjoyed the good hearted banter.

Regards,

LF.

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Converted or not guys, a Webley in .45ACP shouldn't be fired with factory .45ACP they should be handloaded down closer to .455 pressures. The standard loading for .45ACP is way hotter than the .455 MkII so could lead to a nasty accident. Just because it chambers a round, doesn't mean it should.

example

http://www.fototime.com/161988E99A244E7/orig.jpg

a shaved webley firing factory .45ACP

Gaz

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Well pointed out - there have been some very nasty results from using the wrong .45 ammo with Moon Clips in the converted Webley Mk.V1

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LF- When you now say that conversions could have been done in the UK, "could" is the operative word. I personally do not believe they were. However, there is a simple way of telling. If the weapons were converted in the UK then they would have had to be re-proofed in the UK.

Have you ever seen a Webley in .45ACP that carries British Proof House stamps for .45ACP? It is an interesting question as I do not think the Proof House would accept the weapon for re-proofing for the reasons that Gaz outlined.

Also, you now say that these conversions were not routinely done by the military. Just to make my point clear, I do not think that it was ever done non-routinely (or whatever the antonym of "routinely" is).

Regards

TonyE

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Can I just pop in at the end here with a question that has always been in the back of my mind. As far as I understand it the transition from cylinder to barrel throat on a Webley is quite significant and this was designed to be so on the basis that the bullets were lead and hollow based. In other words they could deform to fit the reduced diameter. .45 ACP is usually jacketed and flat based and not designed for that level of compression. Is this only addressed, for a Webley, by downloading?

Just a final 'pennyworth' on the double action question in the original posting. My limited experience of Webley's is that the commercial quality pistols had incredibly smooth double actions which would allow a reasonable degree of accuracy in extremis. The military production guns (of which I once owned one) were less smooth for the presumed reason that there wasn't the facilities to hand tune the guns.

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Actually Matthew, the relation between bullet and bore size is the other way round in the Webley. The bullet is hollow based to allow it to expand into the throat and rifling. The specification for the leed into the rifling is .460" for the Webley revolvers.That for the rifling is Accept .455", Reject .457".

Originally this was to allow the use of both .455 and .476 inch ammunition (the .476" having been used in the previous generation of Enfield revolvers.) Many commercial Webleys are marked ".455/.476" on the frame.

The lineage of the British military revolver cartidge is shown below.

First picture, left to right

.450 Adams Mark I, iron base disc

.450 Adams Mark II, brass base disc

.450 Adams Mark III, drawn case.

Second picture,

.476 Mark II

.476 Mark III

.455 Mark I

.455 Mark II

.455 Mark III

.455 Mark IV

.455 Mark V

.455 Mark VI

No example of the .476" Mark I is known to exist today. Only one lot was ever made and that was sent to India. Records show that the bullet was slightly shorter than the Mark II.

Regards

TonyE

EDIT: Sorry, the pictures have appeared the other way round!

post-8515-0-22045500-1327483691.jpg

post-8515-0-28584500-1327483703.jpg

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Tony,

Thank you.

Wikipedia has the .45 ACP having a .452 diameter bullet so presumably that was safe enough in terms of dimensions with a little bit of set up as the bullet entered the barrel.

M

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Can I butt in on this one please Gents.

I do not doubt LF when he states he has seen in writing that the UK government had revolvers converted , but as far as I am concerned, that statement is blatently wrong and I side with TonyE on this.

I have handled hundreds of .455 Webleys in the UK and have never seen a .45ACP/.45AR conversion over here. MikB and I had a discussion on converted calibre revolvers on another thread ( which I can't find now). For a while in the late 1970's I had a Saturday job as an assistant Storeman in a company owned by a man called Sam Cummins. He bought massive quantities of surplus and confiscated arms from many governments . I have no knowledge at all at all of UK converted pistols or of any being proofed as such over here. In the USA this conversion was very common in the civilian market as .455 ammunition was rare and .45ACP very easy to get. I believe that (Remington?) introduced the .45AR in about 1921 due to the number of surplus Colt and S&W pistols available on the Market that were supplied originally in .45ACP calibre. These pistols , when supplied to the British Government in .455 , were usually converted to .45LC as the conversion was easier , cheaper and ammunition was freely available . This conversion was carried out also in The UK sometimes as .45LC was easier to get from the late 1960's. UK Interarms did some for sale to overseas ( Latin America)police forces as the pistols were easier to sell in that calibre.

Would it be possible for someone to find the original thread and post a link please. I think some readers would find it interesting.

Incidently, I was taught by my GF to load a Webley with 2 rounds at a time after breaking the action with my wrist. The first 2 rounds were always held in the left hand whilst firing the first cylinder. A pistol with an only partially loaded cylinder could be snapped shut in the same way and was ready for immediate use. Used in tis way, they were as fast to fire as most Semi-autos and more effective as a 'Man stopper' than any of them. I remember the late Elmer Keith once wrote that , in his opinion, the .455 Webley cartridge was the most effective close range police and military round he had ever fired due to it's low recoil, big heavy bullet and tendency not to ricochet or pierce walls.

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Thanks for the support on that!

Did you work for Sam at the Interarms Manchester warehouse or the London one at Bollo Lane in Acton? At about that time I had an RFD and used to buy No.4Ts etc. at Acton.

Did you ever meet Sam? he was an amazing character and had a wonderful collection of weapons.

Regards

TonyE

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TonyE

I learned a long time ago to try not to use the words " ever " or " never ".

No one person knows what happened in every event, and there are often surprises and new things to learn no matter how much someone thinks they know.

From the various posts, and particularly your's I personally have gained a lot of new facts and information regarding .455 ammunition, which increases my understanding and enjoyment of the Webleys in my Collection, and for that I thank you and the other members.

A Forum encourages and promotes good hearted debate, and the sharing of information on subjects we all enjoy, and that is exactly why I joined this Forum, and enjoy being a member.

LF.

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No one had seen a coelacanth until a fisherman caught one!

khaki

Quite Right!

But neither had anyone claimed in advance that many of them had been converted from another species by an official government program either...

unless I missed that episode of the x-files :thumbsup:

Chris

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Chris,

I think the the point of the conversions has been flogged to death, and need not be gone over again.

You have more than made your point that in your opinion it " never " took place, and you are not in the position to say that it " never " took place, if you are honest and intelligent, which I am sure you are, the best you can say is that in your opinion it probably did not take place.

You were not personally present in every Army Depot - Armoury - Government Establishment in the U.K. from 1914 to 1970, so it is silly to say " never " or " ever ".

If I find the text that shows conversions did take place, then I shall post same. In the meantime, let us all move on as the subject of did the conversions, or did the conversions not take place officially in the U.K. is on hold, pending the production of further evidence. I and others respect your point of view, and you are entitled to that point of view.

LF.

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Thanks for the support on that!

Did you work for Sam at the Interarms Manchester warehouse or the London one at Bollo Lane in Acton? At about that time I had an RFD and used to buy No.4Ts etc. at Acton.

Did you ever meet Sam? he was an amazing character and had a wonderful collection of weapons.

Regards

TonyE

Manchester . Usually only worked when they needed extra hands due to a big shipment, but was allowed to browse the stores to my hearts content, Also fired many weapons down in the cellar. yes, met Sam a couple of times ( It was him that introduced me to Howard Carter when I was asked to carry a pair of Napolionic pistols to London as a museum loan)

Grand people, all now sadly gone

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Chris,

I think the the point of the conversions has been flogged to death, and need not be gone over again.

You have more than made your point that in your opinion it " never " took place, and you are not in the position to say that it " never " took place, if you are honest and intelligent, which I am sure you are, the best you can say is that in your opinion it probably did not take place.

You were not personally present in every Army Depot - Armoury - Government Establishment in the U.K. from 1914 to 1970, so it is silly to say " never " or " ever ".

If I find the text that shows conversions did take place, then I shall post same. In the meantime, let us all move on as the subject of did the conversions, or did the conversions not take place officially in the U.K. is on hold, pending the production of further evidence. I and others respect your point of view, and you are entitled to that point of view.

LF.

Indeed - and I should perhaps gracefully not make this post

however no-one has accused me of grace.

I think you are misrepresenting what I have said. If you examine the thread you will see the only time I used the words "never" or "ever" was in the context that I have "never" personally "seen". All of my suggestions have been contingent and qualified, using terms like "not definitive" and "strongly suggests". So the implication that it is silly to be definitive is one that I happily accept, so long as it is also applied to the equally definitive statement that "many Mk.V1s were converted by the British Army"

Regarding evidence: you will also note that I suggest primary evidence would be required, as opposed to a "text claiming" After several decades of collecting Enfields, my experience there suggests that the "literature" is replete with all sorts of inaccuracies and myths some of which are repeated endlessly. I see no reason that the literature on Webleys should be any different. Occasionally, new information does surface that challenges long-held and much cherished beliefs and were that to be the case in this instance I will happily embrace it... but again, it was not I who was making definitive claims here.

My fishy comment above was intended to be a humerous (or at least light-hearted) response. I suppose I should not give up the day job!

Cheers,

Chris

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Many Mk.V1's were also converted by the British Army to take the more available U.S. .45 cartridge.

LF

No, I don't think we should let you get away with that post to Chris.

"You were not personally present in every Army Depot - Armoury - Government Establishment in the U.K. from 1914 to 1970, so it is silly to say " never " or " ever "."

That seems to be taking a little too much wriggle room compared to your original post above.

regards

TonyE

EDIT: my post crossed with that of Chris

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Heres a distraction

SERVICE REVOLVERS (PRICES).HC Deb 27 August 1914 vol 66 cc158-9 159

§ 70. Mr. CROOKS asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that the firm of Webley and Scott, contractors to the War Office, have increased the price of service revolvers by 100 per cent.; and whether he proposes taking any action in the matter?

Mr. BAKER Action was taken by the War Office as soon as the overcharge was brought to notice. Messrs. Webley and Scott stated that the extra charge was unauthorised by their directors, and at once arranged to refund to officers or their representatives the amount of overcharge, and issued a circular to this effect to the dealers.

§ Mr. PIRIE Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Webley and Scott are not the only firm who supply military officers with their requirements, and that there are other firms and dealers in the West End who have taken advantage of the present circumstances?

Mr. BAKER Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice of any particular case he has in mind?

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Interesting stuff...

I have always understood that officers had to buy their own sidearms but I gather that this seems to have changed by the outbreak of, or during the Great War?

S

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I would think it changed about the later half of 1916. Webley were fully engaged on war production and could never make enough revolvers for the Ministry (and there are some acrimonious letters about it in the archives). Pistols available fro private purchase were only those already in the trade or that could be made up from pre-war components on hand at Webley.

The situation was similar at both Colt and Smith & Wesson. They were busy fulfilling both UK contracts and US military ones, so only what was already with the importers (London Armoury Company for Colt and I think Osbornes for S & W) was available.

Officers later in the war were supplied with issue pistols, but of course that only exacerbated the production situation. There were never enough which was why we bought the Spanish pistols as well as odds and ends from Ivor Johnson, Harrington & Richardson and others.

Regards

TonyE

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