Great War Webley Revolvers (Mks VI, V & VI)

[Simon127]

Hi All,

Random question. After watching BBC 1's Birdsong the other night I was initially full of scorn at the way that Mr Wraysford fired his Webley Mk VI about four times without touching the hammer when they came across the German tunnelling party. Then I thought, actually I don't really know one way or the other whether you had to cock the hammer after every shot or whether it would automatically cock itself again after firing. Could somebody please set me straight?

Thanks in advance and best wishes,

Simon

PS: I feel a bit embarrassed not to know this as I own deactivated examples of Mks III, V and VI...

PPS: Generally very impressed with the BBC adaptation.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Simon,

I own several live-fire Webleys, and they are not single shot, in that you must cock the hammer each time you fire.

You can repeatedly fire the Webley Mk.V1 by continuing to pull the trigger, which rotates the cylinder for the next bullet to enter the barrel, thereby making it possible to fire six shots one after the other.

[Simon127]

Many thanks for that LF.

And that was presumably the same with the earlier Marks?

Simon

[centurion]

I think you may be confusing semi automatic with double action. A double action uses the trigger to cock the revolver (you pull it once to cock and a second time to fire) The Webley was a single action and needed cocking by pulling back the hammer (hence the spur on the hammer). Only the Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver was, as the name implies a semi automatic revolver. Enfield produced a Webley look alike with a double action (and no spur on the hammer) but these were not made until the 1930s (being regarded as particularly useful for CID police officers as they could be carried in a coat pocket without the risk of accidental firing by catching the hammer spur when pulling it out). Some of these will have seen service in WW2. Double action revolvers of various makes were available to officers by private purchase from gun dealers. I have seen somewhere that some preferred these as they could be carried in a great coat pocket with safety and still be easily available whereas the coat could impede access to a holstered gun. The snag with the double action pistols of appropriate calibre seems to have been that they took longer to reload as they did not have the Webley's top break feature that extracted the cartridges automatically on breaking the gun open. I suppose it could be argued that in the confines of a mine a holster could be an impediment and a double action pistol that could be easily tucked away somewhere without risk of accidental firing might be preferred but realistically the film makers probably just got it wrong. I can remember one Holywood doozy set in the early days of Spanish conquests in Central America where all the soldiers appeared to have semi automatic muskets!

[Tom Morgan]

I have "had a go" with Webley Mk VI revolvers. (Admittedly only two). Both of them could be fired in two ways. You could cock the pistol by pulling back the hammer and then pulling the trigger to fire, or you could just keep pulling the trigger and the pistol would cock, advance the chamber and fire in one pull - bang, bang, bang, just like the cowboy Colt 45 cap-guns we used to play with. You can see someone using both methods

Tom

[centurion]

I may have inadvertently misled - The Webely was capable of both single and double action. Single action was recommended for accuracy. Double action only pistols had spurless hammers.

[Khaki]

The Webley revolvers Mk1 thru Mk6 were all double action revolvers, that is it required only the pull of the trigger to rotate the cylinder and cock and release the hammer, however the revolver could also be used in the single action mode by cocking the hammer until it is locked at full cock and then released by pressure on the trigger. The advantage of using the single action mode was for carefully aimed shots because when used in double action the trigger pull pressure tends to pull all revolvers slightly off target to the right.This of course is not relevant when used as a combat weapon at close range.

khaki

[Simon127]

Thanks Gents,

In a way I feel happier knowing that we had a more effective weapon to play with than one you would have to manually cock each time. If this were the case you would have been somewhat outgunned by an opponent with a P1908 or a Steyr Hahn...or a Maxim 08 for that matter...

Formal written apology on its way to the producers of Birdsong.

Simon

[Khaki]

Thanks Gents,

In a way I feel happier knowing that we had a more effective weapon to play with than one you would have to manually cock each time. If this were the case you would have been somewhat outgunned by an opponent with a P1908 or a Steyr Hahn...or a Maxim 08 for that matter...

Formal written apology on its way to the producers of Birdsong.

Simon

I personally think, as a combat weapon the Mk6 Webley was the ideal trench handgun and superior to the PO8, it was less sensitive to rough handling and trench conditions. The Webley also fired a heavier slug,.455" and while ballistically slower and less accurate had more knockdown power than the 9mm.If all else failed its rugged construction and weight made for an effective club.

khaki

[Simon127]

I agree with you on this one Khaki. The 'Luger' was, I believe, known to discharge itself accidentaly and, though iconic, doesn't have the no-nonsense feel of a Webley. Personally my favourites are the earlier models with the 4" barrels and bird's head grips.

[TonyE]

As already stated, all marks of the Webley are true double action pistols, requiring only one through pull of the trigger to cock the hammer, rotate and lock the cylinder and to fire. There is no need for one pull of the trigger and another one to fire it.

Also, The Enfield Mark I* double action only pistol was .38 inch calibre and was quite seperate from the large frame .455 inch pistols under discussion. Off topic, but they were extensively used in WW2 and the reason for the switch from the Mark I with a hammer spur to the double action only Mark I* and a spurless hammer was twofold. It greatly simplified production and also there had been complaints from crews of armoured vehicles that the trigger spur snagged on clothing within the confines of a tank. The AFV crews carried their pistols in a special low slung thigh holster, different to the normal infantry pattern.

Whilst I was not impressed in the least by Birdsong, the use of the Webley in the mine was actually correct.

Regards

TonyE

[TonyE]

I agree with you on this one Khaki. The 'Luger' was, I believe, known to discharge itself accidentaly and, though iconic, doesn't have the no-nonsense feel of a Webley. Personally my favourites are the earlier models with the 4" barrels and bird's head grips.

I have owned at least six different Parabellum pistols over the years and fired thousands of rounds through them, but I have never known of one discharging accidentaly. The only time one goes off when it should not is due to a negligent discharge., i.e. it is suffering from thrombosis - a clot on the trigger!

...but I agree that the earlier marks of Webley are more attractive.

Regards

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Simon, and other members interested in Webleys, you may enjoy viewing these 5 Webleys from my Collection, all are in full working order, and fired annually to keep in good working order.

All will fire repeatedly by just continually pulling the trigger, without first cocking the hammer.

1. Webley WG Army Model in original .455 calibre.

The Webley archive shows that this particular WG revolver was sold to White's Royal Artillery Agency, Woolwich on 27th September 1909, with a special order for Walnut Target Grips. The revolver cost 4 pounds 5 shillings with 6 pence postage.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

No.2 Webley Mk.V1 revolver in original .455 calibre.

This revolver belonged to 2nd Lieutenant Stanus Vernon Deacon Douglas-Jones of the Coldstream Guards, and comes with factory fitted custom Walnut grips.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

No.3 Webley Mk.1V revolver 4 inch barrel in .38 calibre.

No.4 Webley Mk.V1 converted to .45 calibre.

No.5 Webley Mk.1V 6 inch barrel in .38 calibre.

This revolver has factory fitted custom Burr Wood grips with the rarely seen brass " Webley " grip plaque.

[TomcatPC]

Very nice Webley Revolvers, and that is an understatement!

Thanks

Mark

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks Mark, pleased you liked them.

It is stange when you fire them, recalling their previous owners, and what they probably experienced.

LF

[TomcatPC]

Hello

I think I have fired one or two Webley and Scott Revolvers that were of Great War or earlier vintage. They belonged to a friend of mine and unfortnunatly they were converted to fire the U.S. .45" Cal. Automatic Cartridge. One was the common Mk.VI and the other was a late Victorian era version, it had a 4" barrel, not certin the Mk. but it was at least designed for Cordite. I'm living in the United States and quite a few of the .455" Webley (and S&W and Colt) Revolvers have been converted to fire the U.S. .45" Auto. Cartirdge, which I think is a shame.

I do own one Webely & Scott revolver, but mine is a Post-WWII .38" Cal. Singapore Police Mk.IV. I think it saw little actual use. An actual Great War Webley Revolver is on my wanted list for the future.

Thanks

Mark

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Mark,

Most, if not all of the Webley revolvers Mk.V1 imported into the USA., were converted to take the .45 cartridge. This was done by shaving the cylinder face, and using a " Moon Clip " either for 3 or 6 cartridges. The webley ( photo No.4 ) shows the full Moon Clip with 6 cartridges loaded into the clip.

Many Mk.V1's were also converted by the British Army to take the more available U.S. .45 cartridge.

Mk.V1's in their original .455 calibre are now extremely hard to find, and are much sought after by Collectors, however, I have seen them for sale in the USA.

LF

[TonyE]

....Many Mk.V1's were also converted by the British Army to take the more available U.S. .45 cartridge.

LF

Sorry, but that is utter rubbish. The British did not convert any .455 inch Webley revolvers to take the .45 ACP cartridge. The conversions were all done in the U.S. to make the weapon more appealing to American shooters, given the availability of .45 ACP ammo.

.455 inch Mark VI ammunition remained in production until about 1943 for the British military and Kynoch continued making it for export to places like Pakistan and other Commonwealth countries until around 1970.

In the UK converted Webleys are by far the oddity. Virtually all are still in .455 inch calibre.

Regards

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Tony,

To disagree does not mean that the other persons comments are " utter rubbish ". Despite someone's opinion that their own knowledge is by far superior to any other persons, everyone should be open to a point of view, and no person is too clever to learn something new.

I certainly recall reading that the British Army made conversions to the Mk.V1 altering some to use the American .45 bullet which was more plentiful and persumably a lot cheaper than the obsolete .455 round.

It may be a little humility is needed, and you may wish to preface your argument with " I respectfully disagree ".

Regards,

LF

[MikB]

I didn't find much to argue about in the revolver-shooting in 'Birdsong', but the orders given during the rifle practice sequence were loopy. The craziest thing was giving the order to push down the charger contents and then open bolts. After (possibly?) unloading at the end, the shooters put their safeties on with cocked actions, and then the unfortunate soldier was sent forward to check the targets... No range I've shot on would ever have allowed that, even in more relaxed days than ours.

Of course, a lot of this may be down to editing. I'd guess re-enactors may have been used for much of the original filming - at least as advisors - and they probably would have taken some trouble to get it right.

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

Fair enough, you "recall reading" about it. Can you please quote a reference or source for that statement? An EMER perhaps, or a List of Change paragraph?

The .455 Inch cartridge was not obsolete at the beginning of WWII and was still in production as I mentioned. It was gradually phased out in preference to the .38 inch weapons, but in the UK the .45 ACP was neither more plentiful not necessarily cheaper than .455. All the .45 ACP in the UK had to be purchased by Britain from the US using our cash reserves until the advent of Lend Lease in the second half of 1941. It was not in production in the UK as a military cartridge at that time.

The .45 ACP that we did buy from Winchester and Remington was principally for the Thompson guns that we ordered.

If you can offer a reference that supports your claim then I am quite happy to apologise and admit I am wrong, but until then I stand by what I said.

Kind regards

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Tony,

Thank you for the information on the .455/.45 ammuntion.

Should I again find the text book reference to the British Army using .45 ammuntion in converted Mk.V1's I shall gladly post it.

LF

[MikB]

Tony,

To disagree does not mean that the other persons comments are " utter rubbish ". Despite someone's opinion that their own knowledge is by far superior to any other persons, everyone should be open to a point of view, and no person is too clever to learn something new.

I certainly recall reading that the British Army made conversions to the Mk.V1 altering some to use the American .45 bullet which was more plentiful and persumably a lot cheaper than the obsolete .455 round.

It may be a little humility is needed, and you may wish to preface your argument with " I respectfully disagree ".

Regards,

LF

Frankly, I respectfully disagree with you, and I'm with Tony on this. The American 45 ACP was the new kid on the block in WW1 and 455 certainly wasn't obsolete. I've seen a few Mk.VIs, but never one converted to 45 ACP or Auto Rim in this country. Colonel Barlow's Small Arms Manual of WW2 is careful to point out variations in ammunition taken by pistols and revolvers, and makes no mention of anything other than 455 Mk.II or Mk.VI Ball as fodder for Webley Mk.VI.

In fact, the situation in the UK was rather the reverse of modifying British weapons to use American ammunition - many US revolvers came to Britain chambered for 455 instead of their original calibres - as did some Colt 1911 Autos, chambered for the British 455 Automatic (semi-rimmed) cartridge.

Regards,

MikB