mebu Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 John I must admit that you have me rather confused....which biplane in the picture above, post 8, do you mean? The structure was not pulverised on 3rd September, it was used as a shelter through the winter. Certainly the surrounding area was rather messy, but the structures remained - you refer to a photo dated 3rd September?. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 (edited) Hi Peter, I'm referring to Kobe's post #14 (5 August 2017) on page one of this thread. In his post, he attached a picture (an aerial photo) attributed to the "In Flanders Fields" Museum showing the Square Farm then and now. In the top left corner of the top picture, along a road, is a light colored oblong shape of a wing and horizontal stabilizers consistent with a WW1 biplane. The margin of the photo has some writing, and I'm hoping there's a date on there somewhere. I've seen some other aerial photos showing the farm in June and September, but that's not the one in Kobe's post. I've seen other before and after photos (June/Sept 1917) that shows the area obliterated but those are not the photos to which I am referring. Does that clarify it? John Edited 13 May , 2020 by Sabre76 clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Sorry, cannot see a plane. But to confirm, Square Farm was not pulverised in September. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Like you Peter, I have looked from all angles but still cannot see a plane. John can you highlight on a copy of the photo the whereabouts of the plane? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Hi Peter, I'm referring to Kobe's post of 5 August on this thread. In his post, he attached a picture (an aerial photo) attributed to the "In Flanders Fields" Museum showing the Square Farm then and now. In the top left corner is an oblong shape of a wing and horizontal stabilizers consistent with a WW1 biplane. The margin of the photo has some writing, and I'm hoping there's a date on there somewhere. I've seen some other aerial photos showing the farm in June and September, but that's not the one in Kobe's post. Does that clarify it? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 13 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 13 May , 2020 I take it this this is what is being referred to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Hello Michelle, I pondered that....but is it a plane? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Yes, that's the airplane object to which I referred, and the photo. Thanks for pointing it out Michelle. Anyone know the date of that Photo? Thanks, John PS Peter, maybe not "pulverized". How about "greatly diminished"? The aerials of 3 Sept show pretty much rubble where that building was. The aerial photo above with the "aircraft" shows the structures in relatively good shape. Could be a lighting or exposure issue also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 John, can you post the aerials of 3rd September? On 3rd September the Square Farm bunker, formerly Ost. Wassergut, was occupied as Battalion HQ by 1/8th Lancashire Fusiliers, 42nd Division, who later handed it over to 1/6th Lancashire Fusiliers, so it was still quite usable as a shelter, used for a while yet. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 Here you go Peter. This is why I used the word, "pulverized" for the 3 September view. The structures do not look visible. Everything looks smashed up. But maybe I need a better magnifying glass. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 13 May , 2020 Share Posted 13 May , 2020 (edited) Yes it does look a bit of a mess from above, just shows what our lads went through, especially those in trench line to the right. The Fusiliers inside and in the trench may have heard the plane above, here's their diary for that day. Peter Edited 13 May , 2020 by mebu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 29 May , 2020 Share Posted 29 May , 2020 (edited) Hello again everyone. I had some excellent communication recently with the Memorial Museum Passchendaele 1917 https://www.passchendaele.be staff and they sent me some additional info and pictures they said I can share with you on condition we cite them as the source of this info. I think you will enjoy seeing the picture of a map showing the farm as it stood in the mid 1800s, as well as a detailed photo reconnaissance picture from early 1918, and an except from the VIII Corps Intelligence Report about Square Farm prior to the start of the Battle. They were thrilled to learn about the existence of the 42nd East Lancashire's Division photo of Square Farm and were going to see if they had a copy of the book and will look for it and scan it into digital form, since they were unaware of any photo of the farm. Well done GWF! This latest photo with the mid 1800s map leads me to believe that the picture in the photo is of the remains of the main house that was converted into a reinforced shelter/bunker. The building appears to be about 12 meters width based on the scale from the old map, and I conclude the view is looking east, at the short wall with that other small structure adjacent to it on the north side being the structure just visible in the aerial photo from 1918. This is great stuff! VIII Corps Intelligence Report that was published just before the Battle of Passchendaele was launched. It gives more details about the buildings, though they were already heavily damaged: "SQUARE" Farm (C.30.b.8.8.) consisted of four buildings. The main building which included the dwelling house, contained a strong vaulted cellar under the western end. This cellar was divided into two parts both of which were vaulted in a single span - the vaulting wan very strong. The vault was 2 feet above and the flooring of the cellar 4 feet below the ground. The cattle-sheds in the same building had strongly vaulted cess-pits running under them. The other buildings do not appear to haws had cellars. The pond has been almost entirely filled in, only the two small portions to the N.W. and the S.W. of the farm remaining. The portions to the N., S. and E, have been entirely filled in and no trace of the former pond remains. Field of view This farm is situated in a depression and only gives a view on the rising ground towards FREZENBERG as far as the road about 600' to the E. and to the W. of the Hamlet of FREZENBERG. No view obtainable in the other directions. The Museum is located in the chateau grounds of Zonnebeke, Berten Pilstraat SA, 8980 Zonnebeke Sincerely, John Edited 29 May , 2020 by Sabre76 more clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 31 May , 2020 Share Posted 31 May , 2020 John, well done, some good stuff there, very interesting. Especially the old map. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOBE Posted 1 June , 2020 Share Posted 1 June , 2020 Excellent stuff! Also, square farm was used as a battalion HQ by the 4th regiment, South African Infantry in the run up to the battle of the Menin Road (18th /19th Sept 1917) so it the damage in the photo must have been largely superficial. KOBE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 1 June , 2020 Share Posted 1 June , 2020 Yes, it was used for quite a while yet. Whilst it may have been severely damaged while in use by officers, it must have seemed like luxury to those lads in the mud and rain outside. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 2 June , 2020 Share Posted 2 June , 2020 (edited) Hello again everyone. Overnight, I received additional information from the Memorial Museum of Passchendaele 1917 in Zonnebeke that will be of interest to you. These are sketches to accompany the aerial photos taken by 21 Squadron Royal Flying Corps on 26 June 1917 and 3 Sep 1917. The scan reference is MZ 02090 and the Museum asks we cite that reference if we use it. I love the reference to derelict tanks in the sketch for 3 September. The Memorial Museum of Passchendaele 1917 was unable to locate the original scan or photo of Square Farm taken by the Staff Officer from the 42nd East Lancashire Division in the Imperial War Museum (IWM) archives fyi. They did find the picture in the book, however. I wonder if the original is in the 42nd East Lancashire Archives, or the publisher's files, and is accessible because the more detail I can see on the structure, the better for my project. They also very much appreciated the steer on the 42nd East Lancashire Division photo of Square Farm, and they scanned the image from the book into their files. They had been unaware of that picture. Sincerely, John Edited 2 June , 2020 by Sabre76 grammar error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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