Simon_Fielding Posted 23 January , 2012 Share Posted 23 January , 2012 I seem to remember reading that the position at Square Farm near St Julien was a former German blockhouse - but I can't remember where....is this the case? Any other German blockhouses nearby?? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 23 January , 2012 Share Posted 23 January , 2012 Square Farm, Borry, Beck, Frost etc Farms all at Frezenberg. If you search this forum I'm sure theres been posts on this farm. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beselare Posted 24 January , 2012 Share Posted 24 January , 2012 Hi Simon I have read about the fighting for Square Farm many times during the course of my researches. I have never read about it being a bunker. A typical entry might read, 31st July 1917 - The 1/7th King's Liverpool Regt. were held up at Square Farm on the Divisional boundary, causing problems for the advancing Highland Light Infantry. However, the 1/7th persevered, finally taking the farm and many prisoners. If it had been a bunker, then I am certain that would have been stated. It was surrounded by a small moat and would have been a 'fortified farm house'. As far as I am aware, there is no trace of a bunker there now. Regards, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 24 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2012 Thanks for the feedback gents - I have a NA reprint trench map which doesn't seem to list a bunker either - must be 'false memory'!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 24 January , 2012 Share Posted 24 January , 2012 No Simon, it's not false memory. Square farm was a solid blockhouse, there are photos...eg one in 42nd Div history, probably found somewhere on this forum. Let me know if the photo is important and I'll re-scan. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 24 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2012 Peter, that's really kind but not necessary on my account - I'm writing something and referred to Square Farm as a blockhouse, but couldn't remember what evidence I was basing it on... thanks for saving my sanity!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beselare Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 No Simon, it's not false memory. Square farm was a solid blockhouse, there are photos...eg one in 42nd Div history, probably found somewhere on this forum. Let me know if the photo is important and I'll re-scan. Peter Hello Peter. This request is purely to save my own face! I have searched all seven pages of the Forum with the words Square Farm, and have only found one entry (which confirmed my thoughts about it being a fortified farm house). Your revelation puts a different perspective on quite a few of the attacks on it. As Square Farm is not a regular topic, there probably are not too many members who would be interested in seeing that photo, but selfishly I would very much appreciate a view. I would then be visiting the site to see if I can identify exactly where it might have been. Regards, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Bob, here's the photo, Peter PS last time I looked, some time ago, there was a patch in the middle of the beet field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 25 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Thanks Peter - really interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beselare Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Dear Peter As you travel through the archives of the Great War, the phrase, "I never knew that" seems to be never-ending! When the weather gets a bit drier here (I might be invited to cross some waterlogged fields) I am going to visit the farmhouse with the photo and see if the current owner knows where the site was and I will take some photos. Many thanks Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOBE Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 On 25/01/2012 at 09:28, mebu said: Bob, here's the photo, Peter PS last time I looked, some time ago, there was a patch in the middle of the beet field. mebu, any chance you know the origin of this image? I'm trying to gather as much information as possible about the Frezenberg area for a family history thing I'm doing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 30 July , 2017 Share Posted 30 July , 2017 KOBE, the pic is from the history of the 42nd Division. photos are not acknowledged but probably immediately post-war by one of the returned officers who were compiling the history. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOBE Posted 4 August , 2017 Share Posted 4 August , 2017 On 30/07/2017 at 10:04, mebu said: KOBE, the pic is from the history of the 42nd Division. photos are not acknowledged but probably immediately post-war by one of the returned officers who were compiling the history. Peter OK, thanks. Square Farm was the HQ for the 4th Regiment South African Infantry the night before the Battle of the Menin Road. My Grandfather was a runner in the regiment so he very likely was inside it at some point or at the very least was familiar with it. No trace of it now (I was there the other day) :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOBE Posted 5 August , 2017 Share Posted 5 August , 2017 In the 'In Flanders Fields' museum in Ypres there is an exhibit that has an interactive screen that alternates between old aerial pics of the Salient and modern aerial photography. Square Farm is actually on there and you can make out with some accuracy its position. Here are two photos showing what I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Hello everyone, Can anyone tell me the orientation of that photo of Square Farm? I'm guessing it's the view looking eastward from the west side next to the road. Is that correct? I'm planning to do a diorama of it in honor of my Great Grandfather stretcher bearer who was in the 7/8th Royal Irish Fusiliers, 16th Division, and was wounded near there in the attack on Borry Farm, Beck House, Iberia, etc on 16 August 1917. I'm assuming that light colored area in front of the bunker is the road passing directly in front of the bunker depicted on the map? Any idea of the material used on that road? Cobblestone? Thanks for your help. Very much appreciate your posting the pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 S, the National Library of Scotland has trench maps which can be overlain with modern road map. Go to maps.nls.uk/geo/maps and in the box type Wieltje, this will give square 28NW which shows Square Farm on right edge of map, then at bottom left hand corner of screen slide blue blob for modern overlay. Or, maybe some kind soul may do it for you. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 HI Peter, I have a bunch of the those maps and bought a great reference book on the trench system. Thank you for the suggestion! Just trying to understand the orientation of the photo you posted at this point. That photo is tremendously helpful for me, by the way. I've done a number of map reconnaissances, but that photo really made a big difference in understanding why they chose it as a HQ and Aid Station. Sincerely, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug504 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 John, you may have already used the N.L.S website as suggested by Peter, it is a fantastic resource. If not here are the images he suggests, North is to the top in each case. This link will also take you to the map/image https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=15.72969470533813&lat=50.87292&lon=2.94691&layers=101464897&b=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Thank you Doug (and Peter). Bear with me, but I'm a former West Point grad, US Army officer tanker and helicopter pilot (maybe that's handicapping me!) and the map vs the picture is throwing me off. The map indicates the longer buildings have a southwest to northeast construction orientation, which suggests to me that the orientation of the crew served weapons would be generally situated along the long walls, (looking northeast to southwest), but this makes no sense to me since the main avenue of approach of the British Army (when the bunker was constructed) would have been attacking from the west to the east (or against the short walls), so I guess I'm having a little bit of cognitive dissonance when I look at the picture vs the map. Maybe the picture is of the smaller building in the complex which does face west, and the other buildings were mostly shot away, which is totally plausible. My training suggests to me the German engineers probably wouldn't have built a strongpoint bunker facing northwest (unless it was part of an elaborate interlocking fire plan that had more firing positions oriented at oblique angles) and I know from personal experience that maps sometimes do not always reflect the current state of buildings or roads, especially after they get blown to bits. It seems to me that the German combat engineers would likely have built a new bunker in that location behind the moat, parallel to the road, with the long wall generally facing west because that's where the attacker would most likely come from. So I think I am looking at the front (or the back) of a newer building, not depicted on the map, obliterated after the war, oriented parallel to the road facing an attacker from the west, and that bunker is not shown on the map in the picture (unless it is that smaller building on the south side of the farm shown on the map or they built a new one). I think I'm looking at a building that was built after the map was made, and it's facing west toward an attacker. Is it the front, or the back, in other words. Those small openings in the wall are definitely clues, and suggest they are firing ports. Sorry to belabor this. The map vs the picture is not making sense to me, but I'm sure there is an explanation. I do sincerely value all your input and help. You are all so kind and helpful and that's a real joy to me. That picture is a massive help and the overlays are super cool. I can't wait to do a recon there personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Hi Sabre76, Here is a side-by-side map with northern orientation. Click on the image to enlarge or visit the website and zoom in and choose from 7 separate 1917 maps : credit: National Library of Scotland and tMapper preview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 You can also click on Street View and change the orientation to get a panorama - however the pitch and yaw controls at the bottom are not quite as sophisticated as your chopper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 7 May , 2020 Share Posted 7 May , 2020 Ha ha! Great idea! Yes, I’ll hover and do a few pedal turns, as u suggest! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 7 May , 2020 Share Posted 7 May , 2020 S, most of the maps- British and German- suggest that the structure, named Ostl. Wassertgut by it's inhabitants, was built almost E-W, because it was inside the existing farm building, which had that orientation Therefore the aerial photo posted by Kobe is just about true north. May not have been a defensive structure, but a shelter/hq, probably with a machine gun/s to be fired over the top, which was normal. The firing ports you mention are roof beams. The Germans did not have much choice in deciding where to construct shelters, quite close to the front line, and farm buildings were ideal. Ostl. Wassergut did not put up much of a struggle, 130 German troops were reported taken prisoner there by 10/11 HLI, although the adjacent 55th Division made claim also. The 73 RE Coy immediately made a strongpoint there. Later, 427 RE Coy of 42 Div made it into a HQ, recording that it was hit and damaged by high calibre German shells, so they cast an internal strengthening wall and made a burster course on the roof with steel girders. The work may be associated with the uprights which can be seen in the photo, together with what looks like a new entrance on the southern side. There was no new construction in the area after the map was made. Also, a map showing usable shelters here during the summer of 1918, after the area was handed back to the Germans, does not include this structure which suggests it was more severely damaged after the photo above. Hope this helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 7 May , 2020 Share Posted 7 May , 2020 Yes, Peter, that info is immensely helpful. I was trying to look at the terrain behind it in the photo for clues, and using google maps to "drive" Felix Nadarstraat in the vicinity, and your latest narrative makes a lot of sense to me. It also fits with the image taken in that context. Thank you all very much for the help. This will really help me design the diorama plan with the correct orientation. This forum is a superb resource, thanks to members like you. Sincerely, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre76 Posted 11 May , 2020 Share Posted 11 May , 2020 Kobe et al, First, I would like to reiterate to all that your insights are superb. Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful replies. I am learning a lot to supplement my military training. I have just perused Pillboxes of the Western Front, and it's an excellent resource. That photo above, that shows the shelter and the downed biplane. It was posted to this forum on 5 August 2017, 100 years and 11 days before my Great Grandfather was wounded near there. Do you know the date of that photo? I suspect that the shelter was pulverized by 16 August 1917. The photos of that location from September 3rd are shocking. That building was pulverized by 3 September 1917. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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