michaeldr Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 This link should take you to an IWM photograph of Allenby speaking in Jerusalem. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205087143 The date given is the 10th December 1917 and the place is described as the Citadel. Allenby, however, did not enter the city until a day later; the 11th December 1917. He confirmed this in letters to his wife and in his telegram Robertson. Indeed, in the latter he even mentions the time: 'at noon' I am also having difficulty recognizing the location; this was not at the steps of the Citadel as seen in other photographs of his proclamations being read out in various languages on the 11th. (edit to add) For comparison see http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205191007 which is correctly date 11th Dec 1917 and also described as the Citadel steps Can anyone clarify what exactly this photograph depicts? Thanks for your interest Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Looking again at the first IWM photograph, and in particular at the architecture, the uniforms (including the head-gear), the flags, the carpet, etc., I wonder if perhaps the date and city are wrong and that this is in fact a photograph from after the war's end, taken in December 1918 at the Citadel in Cairo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Hi Michael Could the first photo be Allenby's entry into Aleppo on 10th December 1918 (date agrees apart from the year). It might explain the profusion of arab army officers although I do not recognise the building in the background? A search on google doesn't reveal any similar photos though. There do seem to be a lot of Arab Army flags on the right? Or could it be Damascus? All the best Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Racking my decrepit memory for my last visit to the citadel in Cairo and it doesn't seem right - I'd vote for Damascus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Dominic, I do not know the place but I think that Aleppo is a very good suggestion. The IWM's caption mentions "Sir Mark Sykes is on the right and Major General MacAndrew, commanding 5th Cavalry Division on the left." As far as I can tell, MacAndrew's Divisonal HQ entered Aleppo at 10.00 hrs on 26th October 1918 As regards Sir Mark Sykes, Allenby wrote to Wilson (CIGS) on 9th November 1918, "Sykes I have never met, but I know him fairly well from hearsay" In view of the latter then the photograph cannot be from 1917! Thanks again for your ideas on this Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Hi Michael i have been to Aleppo about 17 years ago but don't recognise the building-I did search the IWM catalogue and came up wih this-pity we cannot see the picture! I wonder if your picture is a date typo! Allenby Aleppo all the best Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Centurion, Thanks for your thoughts on this as outlined in #5 above I think that Aleppo has a strong case but Damascus cannot be ruled out regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 quote from IWM Object description - December 1917 The Capture of Jerusalem: General Allenby (centre) making his speech on the steps of the Citadel. Sir Mark Sykes is on the right and Major General MacAndrew, commanding 5th Cavalry Division on the left. I think that the first slip-up was probably the date: 10 December 1917 instead of 10 December 1918 Then someone just carried on from there saying 'Oh well if it's December 1917 then it must be Jerusalem' Thanks again Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Bennitt Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Doesn't look like the citadel in Aleppo to me. Neither of the entrance gates is quite right http://www.shazzakataya.com/photos/citadel-of-aleppo-syria/ cheers Martin B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eran Tearosh Posted 13 January , 2012 Share Posted 13 January , 2012 The 5th Cavalry Division arrived in Palestine only in 1918, so if Major-General MacAndrew is in it, the photo must be from 1918. No idea of the location. Eran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 13 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 January , 2012 Martin & Eran – many thanks for your comments In view of the ref to Sykes (I take it that the IWM have got that part right; can anyone pick him out in that line up?) it must have been taken after the end of the war in this theatre. I cannot identify when Allenby first met Sykes, but he refers to him early in 1919 His letter of 15th jan 1919 addressed to Wingate, mentions a just completed tour through Aleppo, Jerablus, Adna, Bozanti, Mersina, Alexandretta, Tripoli and Beirut. He was with Sykes at Aleppo and Jerablus, though on this occasion he does not mention him being at Beirut too. The latter place is noteworthy as there must have been an impressive ceremony there, given that Allenby talks of “an enthusiastic official welcome; and presented me with a sword of honour – a beautiful old Damascus blade; inlaid, in gold with texts from the Koran.” regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eran Tearosh Posted 13 January , 2012 Share Posted 13 January , 2012 Michael, I came across this photo in the past and just went on knowing that that photo is not the citadel and just thinking to myself "Someone got it wrong". However, now that you brought it up and on a second thought, the architecture reminds me of the Augusta Victoria building on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem which served as the first British High Commissioner's HQ till the 1927 earthquake. I'll try to get over there soon and see if I can find a similar entrance (Although they were extensive renovations and probably changes after the earthquake). Maybe it's still Jerusalem after all… Eran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 14 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2012 Eran, I have had the same idea myself, but was only able to check it against the photographs which came up on a Google search. Looking again at those photographs this morning I still cannot find anything to match this entrance way and steps. I also have the feeling that the place's architecture used a more rounded form of arch, but I may be mistaken here. If you are sure that it is not out of your way, then I would be pleased to hear of the results of your visit. Best regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 27 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2015 My thanks to our GWF Pal, Eran, for the lead to this page http://www.illustratedfirstworldwar.com/item/the-victor-of-palestine-at-aleppo-general-allenbys-entry-iln0-1919-0301-0015-001/ which shows the same scene as the IWM photograph, but from a different angle, and most importantly, with the correct details of the date and place:- 10th December 1918, the Serail, Allepo, Syria Quote from The Illustrated London News, March 1, 1919 General Sir Edmund Allenby, the deliverer of Palestine, made a state entry into Allepo, in Syria, on December 10. He was accompanied by a large escort of Indian cavalry, and the streets were lined by men of the 5th Cavalry Division, and a number of armoured cars. Great Crowds witnessed the procession to the Serail, and gave the victorious General a great ovation. At the Serail the Commander-in-Chief gave audience to civil and religious leaders (Moslem, Christian and Jewish) and a group of leading citizens. He then addressed the people gathered in the Serail square, amid the greatest enthusiasm. On January 5 General Allenby again visited Allepo and walked through the bazaars. (my emphasis) regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 27 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2015 Martin & Eran – many thanks for your comments In view of the ref to Sykes (I take it that the IWM have got that part right; can anyone pick him out in that line up?) it must have been taken after the end of the war in this theatre. I cannot identify when Allenby first met Sykes, but he refers to him early in 1919 His letter of 15th jan 1919 addressed to Wingate, mentions a just completed tour through Aleppo, Jerablus, Adna, Bozanti, Mersina, Alexandretta, Tripoli and Beirut. He was with Sykes at Aleppo and Jerablus, though on this occasion he does not mention him being at Beirut too. The latter place is noteworthy as there must have been an impressive ceremony there, given that Allenby talks of “an enthusiastic official welcome; and presented me with a sword of honour – a beautiful old Damascus blade; inlaid, in gold with texts from the Koran.” regards Michael Also of interest and a little further on in the same issue of the ILN, there is a photograph of Allenby and Bulfin in Beirut, at a 'kiosk in the municipal gardens' where they are accompanied by the President of the Municipality of Beirut, Omar Bey Daouk. see http://www.illustratedfirstworldwar.com/item/science-jottings-iln0-1919-0301-0017-001/ Alas, we do not get sight of the impressive sword which was presented to Allenby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eran Tearosh Posted 27 January , 2015 Share Posted 27 January , 2015 Michael, Credit due to Prof. Yigal Sheffy. He spoke last evening in an event at Tel-Hai about wrong captions (Topic we are dealing with quite a lot lately...), especially regarding photos associated with Allenby's entry to Jerusalem. The event was the launch of a new book: PALESTINE AND WORLD WAR I GRAND STRATEGY, MILITARY TACTICS AND CULTURE IN WAR (Published by I.B. TUARIS) Editors: Yigal Sheffy, Haim Goren, Eran Dolev See you soon, Eran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 27 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2015 Eran, Your call this morning got my day off to a great start After putting down the 'phone I was off to The Bird's Head for my (52nd Div.) battlefield jog Now, I am at my desk trying to work out how to get the bank manager to OK a mortgage so that I can buy the book! with best regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodonisle Posted 5 March , 2015 Share Posted 5 March , 2015 Does not look like the old city. Try sending photo to Travelocity residents in the places in question, asking "where is this" and I bet you will get locals to say yea or nea for their city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eran Tearosh Posted 29 September , 2017 Share Posted 29 September , 2017 (edited) Someone just sent me the photo in question and asked my opinion (Jerusalem, date etc.). I forwarded him the relevant link: http://www.illustratedfirstworldwar.com/item/the-victor-of-palestine-at-aleppo-general-allenbys-entry-iln0-1919-0301-0015-001/ I decided to find once and for all what is this building - so, seems we are talking about the (Old) Serail of Aleppo, replaced by the (New) Grand Serail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Serail_of_Aleppo Cannot confirm if the (New) Grand Serail was built on the site of the old Serail (Makes sense) or on a different location. Maybe someone with good Syrian connections might be able to verify that. As to the word Serail - originates from Saray / Seraya: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saray_(building) Eran Edited 29 September , 2017 by Eran Tearosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 30 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2017 (edited) On 29/09/2017 at 15:27, Eran Tearosh said: Cannot confirm if the (New) Grand Serail was built on the site of the old Serail (Makes sense) Eran, I would have been inclined to go along with that however this map, which Wiki gives as dating from 1912, does not show anything on the site later occupied by the Grand Serail built between 1928-33 EDIT: Is it possible that what is shown on the map above as the 'Municipalité' is in fact the old Serail? regards Michael Edited 30 September , 2017 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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