MichaelBully Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 From going through previous threads on Zeebrugge, there are a lot of fascinating discussion concerning individuals and ships who took part. I have started reading as much as I can on the Zeebrugge Raid, but what I particularly welcome are people's views on what the Raid achieved. The heroism of the men concerned and the boost that the action gave the Allied side don't seem to be doubted. Were the objectives met in hampering the German U boat activity? From looking at Philp Warner's 'The Zeebrugge Raid' ( published 1976) ,the author describes the raid as 'a complete success'. Regards, Michael Bully EDIT Oops, Philip Warner's 'The Zeebrugge Raid' was published by William Kimber in 1978 (NOT 1976- the author wrote a letter published by 'The Daily Telegraph' in May 1976 appealing for men who had fought at Zeebrugge to contact him ) .Apologies for the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonharley Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Brilliant as far as morale-boosting goes. Four torpedo boats went through the supposedly blocked canal entrance at high water the next day, the 24th. Coastal submarine UB-16 passed through on the 25th. On 4 May the oceangoing submarine UC-17 passed through. Destroyers first passed through on 14 May - so three weeks' worth of disruption, and one day of total blockage, for the cost of over 200 lives, against the German reported loss of 8 killed and 16 wounded. On the night of 28 May an air attack damaged a lock gate, necessitating its replacement which closed the canal until 4 June, and on 9 June a bombardment damaged the newly replaced lock gate and closed the canal for the rest of the month to all shipping. Slightly cheaper in lives. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Michael This statement seen on Wikipedia: "The blockships were not in the correct position when sunk and only managed to block the Canal for a few days. The Germans removed two piers in the west bank of the Canal,near the blockships,and created a channel through the silt near the blockships' sterns. They were thus able to move submarines past the blockships at high tide". It would be interesting to know if,prior to the raid,the Germans could move submarines in and out at all states of the tide,this would confirm that at least restricted warfare was only possible after the raid,and thus a victory for the sacrifices made. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 10 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Thanks Simon and Sotonmate Philp Warner p15. "Neverthless the fact that although a number of shallow draught boats were able to leave the Zeebrugge Canal soon after the operation only intensive dredging operations managed to open the channel three weeks later and then only partly. Three weeks is a long time in a critical phase of a war. No one among the Allies beleived the canals would be blocked permanently: the aim of the raid was to disrupt. Its effect would have been infinitely greater if the British Air Force had followed up the closing of the canal by bombing the imprisoned German craft......." So this writer also mentions 'three weeks' . But the way I understand the objectives of the Raid, I thought the definition of success would relate to whether or not U Boats were hampered from using the port. Regards, Michael Bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 11 January , 2012 Share Posted 11 January , 2012 although the raid boosted morale of the British, the raid was certainly no 'complete succes', as Simon stated, on 25/4/1918 UB 16 already passed through, later followed by the other subs. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 11 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2012 Hello Cnock, from what I have learned so far, I tend to agree . Philip Warner felt that the raid was not receiving enough attention from historians in the 1970's. To give him credit, he tracked down dozens of men who had been present, and their relatives, and tried to use other new material where possible. But he may have overstated his case by describing the raid as a 'complete success'. I'd like to thank everyone who has posted so far. Michael Bully although the raid boosted morale of the British, the raid was certainly no 'complete succes', as Simon stated, on 25/4/1918 UB 16 already passed through, later followed by the other subs. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazunitec Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Michael, I am new on here and joined mainly to research the history of my Grandfather on my mums side who was in France in WW1. I did however come across this thread and thought that some members may like to see this document which was sent to my grandfather (on dads side) confirming his participation in the raid on Zeebrugge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Hi Eddy et all, on the other side - did the British failure to achieve a mission success in the Zeebrugge and Ostende raids in fact boosted the moral of the German Marinekorps Flandern ? Do not say that the moral of both sides equally were boosted........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 The Germans seemed to be relieved that the British Navy stopped the raids on the harbours after 10/11 Mai 1918. The Marinekorps knew that it would be difficult to repulse these raids in the future, because they lacked enough and strong warship units at the Belgian coast. So I would not dare to say that it was a boost for the morale of the German Marinekorps. Cnock The Germans seemed to be relieved that the British Navy stopped the raids on the harbours after 10/11 Mai 1918. The Marinekorps knew that it would be difficult to repulse these raids in the future, because they lacked enough and strong warship units at the Belgian coast. So I would not dare to say that it was a boost for the morale of the German Marinekorps. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 I think the German repulse of British raids never was allocated to Imperial surface combatant ships but from the very beginning of the Flanders occupation they relied of the much stronger shore based coastal batteries. These got stronger and stronger over the years and successfully repulsed British monitors. At the very end in 1918 I think the British just weighed the success vs failure ratio and came to the conclusion that any attack from sea was suicide. So coming back to the Zeebrugge raid I also believe the moral of the Marinekorps was pretty high since that raid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonharley Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 As I understand it (happy to be corrected) the closure of the Channel to submarines by mines and patrol rendered the Belgian Ports somewhat superfluous as a submarine base even before the Zeebrugge Raid, as they had to sail North around Scotland to get to the Atlantic. The torpedo boats hadn't exactly been amazingly active either. Von Holtzendorff and Ludendorff both wanted to know why the British were able to surprise the defences even though 1st Marine Division knew that an attack was coming days in advance, and why they were able to at least partially block the canal entrance. Von Schröder replied that he thought his dispositions had been adequate, and that he didn't have the resources to maintain a more effective patrol of the coast. He proposed that the defences of the Mole be strengthened and additional covering fire positions be built on the mainland, and even then he stated that there was no guarantee that a future British raid could be defeated. The local defenders must have been gratified at the low casualties incurred, and the sight of various ships going out past the blockships must have been a boost of sorts. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 The large German Coastal batteries had not been able to stop or prevent the raid on Zeebrugge, the British coming in on a foggy night, and not having been discovered by the 'Vorpostenboote'. The most damage was done in fact by the battery on the Mole,firing at point blank range, and that had not been silenced (although one of the targets of the raiding parties) and by the batteries near the Mole ( for exemple the Canal Battery) Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 That's fascinating Barry, thanks . Do you know which ship your grandfather served on ? Regards , Michael Bully *******Michael, I am new on here and joined mainly to research the history of my Grandfather on my mums side who was in France in WW1. I did however come across this thread and thought that some members may like to see this document which was sent to my grandfather (on dads side) confirming his participation in the raid on Zeebrugge******* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Cnock and Simon -grateful for the points that you raised. The Germans had few casualties. I had not really thought of the Zeebrugge Raid as boosting German morale. The Germans were having a lot of military success on the Western Front with Operation Michael in April 1918 so Zeebrugge may have not seemed to be of significance. Yet I remember reading somewhere that the Kaiser visited Zeebrugge fairly swiftly affter the Raid so must have had some impact. Any German sources known about that view Zeebrugge as a success for their side ? Regards, Michael Bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazunitec Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Michael, Grandad is shown to have served on the Battleship HMS Canada from the 10th August 1915 until the 28th February 1918. He then transferred to the Battleship HMS Hindustan and is shown as serving on there from 1st March 1918 until the 23rd April 1918 and then he was back on HMS Canada from the 24th April 1918 until the 31st March 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 thanks for the information Barry, I am at work but will look at my books on Zeebrugge and see what I can find out. Regards Michael Bully Michael, Grandad is shown to have served on the Battleship HMS Canada from the 10th August 1915 until the 28th February 1918. He then transferred to the Battleship HMS Hindustan and is shown as serving on there from 1st March 1918 until the 23rd April 1918 and then he was back on HMS Canada from the 24th April 1918 until the 31st March 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/30770726513427352162910.jpg/][/url] Visit of the Kaiser fater the raid of 23/4/1918 Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 14 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2012 Thanks Cnock -great photo. There is a short clip of King George V and Queen Mary reviewing Zeebrugge Survivors http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675043157_King-George-V_Queen-Mary_British-troops_Zeebrugge-Raid_World-War-I Also a clip of the Kaier visiting Zeebrugge in 1918 ( date not specified) http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675044687_Kaiser-Wilhelm-II_Kaiser-arrives_flag-of-German-Army_World-War-I Regards Michael Bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domwalsh Posted 16 January , 2012 Share Posted 16 January , 2012 Barry, PM me your email as I'd like to make contact re the raid and your grandfather. V best, Dom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazunitec Posted 17 January , 2012 Share Posted 17 January , 2012 Dom, It doesn't give me that option until I make 5 posts I think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazunitec Posted 17 January , 2012 Share Posted 17 January , 2012 thanks for the information Barry, I am at work but will look at my books on Zeebrugge and see what I can find out. Regards Michael Bully Michael. another bit of information; after the war when Grandad left HMS Canada in 1919, he signed up straight away for the Archangel River Expedition to Russia and did that from May to December 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 18 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2012 Hello Barry, great , I think that you've got your five posts now! From looking at books I have collected on 'Zeebrugge' , I can't work out where the HMS Hindustan was on the night of the raid itself. Had men from HMS Hindustan-such as your grandfather- gone on board other ships for the action itself? Regards Michael Bully Michael. another bit of information; after the war when Grandad left HMS Canada in 1919, he signed up straight away for the Archangel River Expedition to Russia and did that from May to December 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazunitec Posted 18 January , 2012 Share Posted 18 January , 2012 Dom, just tried to pm you my email address but it came up with the following error.... The following errors were found The member domwalsh cannot receive any new messages This personal message has not been sent Is your inbox full? PM me your email and I will contact you that way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazunitec Posted 18 January , 2012 Share Posted 18 January , 2012 Hello Barry, great , I think that you've got your five posts now! From looking at books I have collected on 'Zeebrugge' , I can't work out where the HMS Hindustan was on the night of the raid itself. Had men from HMS Hindustan-such as your grandfather- gone on board other ships for the action itself? Regards Michael Bully Michael, my Grandad had already transferred from Canada to Hindustan but seeing as these battleships were a fair old size, I imagine he had transferred again to a smaller vessel for the action.... I can't confirm this though as his record does not show any other ships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 18 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2012 Hello Barry, have you checked local papers of the time for more information? My experience is that they often have an interesting angle on the Great War, but are not always accurate. Regards. Michael, my Grandad had already transferred from Canada to Hindustan but seeing as these battleships were a fair old size, I imagine he had transferred again to a smaller vessel for the action.... I can't confirm this though as his record does not show any other ships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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