War Horse

[Tom W.]

Have not seen the ike thing is it avaiable on DVD ?

Yes! And cheap, too:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ike-Countdown-D-Day-Timothy-Bottoms/dp/B0007XMLSO/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1326190957&sr=1-1

It's not an action movie. It's about the preparations for D-Day, the agonizing decisions that had to be made, and how Ike made them without complaint even though they pained him greatly.

[Guest exuser1]

orderd thanks ,on a diffrent note but in a way connected with Speilberg and his movie making i read the Band of Brothers ,and worked me way through D day Citerzen soliders ,and in the D Day book all other commanders are taken to task as being imoral ,or useless but fawns over Ike ? and not one mention of Kay Sumersby !

[auchonvillerssomme]

Grandad and his 2 lead wagon team horses, 170 and 244. I would imagine they did have names. My dad told me that one of grandads jobs was to train horses out of their natural instinct to jump over or avoid men lying down which threw the gun carriages off track.

[Roger H]

First photo, my Grandfather and his horse. Doncaster 1914

Second photo, sometime later in France/Belgium. Would love to know where and when!

Roger

[auchonvillerssomme]

I'm no judge but those all look like horses that are well kept and made for the work.

[Seadog]

I still fink dat Red Baron is the bestest `cause it aint got noe horses `cause dey ount fit in the airplan!!

Hic!

Norman

[Roger H]

I'm no judge but those all look like horses that are well kept and made for the work.

I absolutely agree. And it cannot be hard to imagine the bond that would develop between man and beast.

Roger

[stripeyman]

Intrestingly you rate Colditz Story , on meeting a few of the previous inmates ,including Pat Reid they thought it was awful and nothing like the reality of the real prison ,also the uniforms are rubbish ,and no excuse as it was only made within a few years of WW2 ,for a excellent war film try They Were Not Divided

Quite right, a very good realistic film

[widavies]

I'm going to watch it, and will reserve judgement until the final credits are rolling.

Will

[Guest exuser1]

Out of intrest if any one has not seen They Were not Divided ,and its about £3 on Amazon ,the plot is a bit weak ,1940 3 lads join the Guards a Englishman ,a American and a Irishman ! the English lad and the Yank get commissions in Guards Armoured ,film covers training through to action in Normandy ,the kit is superb ,the tanks the real deal and change as per period ,as does the countryside to fit in with the action ,then moves on to Belgium ,Holland and ends with the Bulge ,the things to look for are the orginal German Tanks ,some great Shermans ,and the dialoge is excellent ,its funny ,quite moveing and even exciting ,the final scene is worth listining to as it carrys the true horror without the blood and gore ,and the burial party with the comment on which bible to use is stunning ,i belive it was the most popular UK film of 1954 , you feel that a lot of the situations filmed were first had accounts ,the bit with the Guide in Brussels you could not make up ? the film is a real treasure and a good antidote to a lot of todays rubbish?

[auchonvillerssomme]

It wouldn't be right without the obligatory coward/rapist/paedophile Englishman, the gay officer and private getting it together, Australian patriot scotsman/irishman, the woman held back by jealous men and a couple of dinosaurs or maybe a shark.

[squirrel]

What! No poet and drunken, abusive NCO?

[DrB]

Bottom line, like it or not...Wars never stopped anything but slavery, Nazism and Fascism.

DrB

[phil andrade]

Out of intrest if any one has not seen They Were not Divided ,and its about £3 on Amazon ,the plot is a bit weak ,1940 3 lads join the Guards a Englishman ,a American and a Irishman ! the English lad and the Yank get commissions in Guards Armoured ,film covers training through to action in Normandy ,the kit is superb ,the tanks the real deal and change as per period ,as does the countryside to fit in with the action ,then moves on to Belgium ,Holland and ends with the Bulge ,the things to look for are the orginal German Tanks ,some great Shermans ,and the dialoge is excellent ,its funny ,quite moveing and even exciting ,the final scene is worth listining to as it carrys the true horror without the blood and gore ,and the burial party with the comment on which bible to use is stunning ,i belive it was the most popular UK film of 1954 , you feel that a lot of the situations filmed were first had accounts ,the bit with the Guide in Brussels you could not make up ? the film is a real treasure and a good antidote to a lot of todays rubbish?

Agreed....very understated, a case of "less is more".

An interesting comment on Anglo- American relations.

I only saw it the one time, but I remember how delighted my Dad was with it, and since he was a veteran who knew the business, I have to conclude that it had some authenticity.

Phil (PJA)

[kenf48]

As an afterthought, how many of the horses were actually shipped home again? My grandfather was in the RFA and his unit war diary refers to horses being transferred to various bases, the Animal Collecting Camp (at Douai) or even being sold at Tournai. There was also a Remount Depot at Rouen.

Does anyone know how many horses were actually shipped back after the war?

S.

Although this thread is becoming a little tangled the answer is relatively few were shipped home.

I don't know if there are any specific figures for the Western Front, officers could bring their horses home, but these, and a few other riding horses, were the exception. Those that were no longer required by the Army were cast and branded 'C', rather than go to the expense of shipping them home they were sold in theatre.

Horse dealers across the Empire, and South America had grown rich on War Office contracts. The WO had paid out millions of pounds and once the horses were no longer needed, or fit for military service to recoup their expense the majority of draught and transport horses were sold. The buyers were French farmers and tradesmen. Those animals that were not able to work, either through ill-health or configuration were sold to slaughtermen. There was a shortage of meat and therefore the laws of supply and demand came into effect and the the slaughterhouses could pay the highest price.

In Palestine the situation was even worse, all 20,000 horses were shipped to Egypt and sold in spite of the protestations of the GOC Yeomanry (who it is reported turned a blind eye to those officers who took their favourite charger into the desert and shot them to protect them from being sold into slavery).

Again it was simple economics, a slaughtered horse was worth £1, those that could work were sold for just over £10.

The horses were set to work and, as predicted, cruelly treated by their new masters. To such an extent in 1930 a Englishwoman, Dorothy Brooke was so shocked at their plight she set about rescuing them and as well as using her own money her campaign in the UK championed by the Morning Post raised thousands of pounds to enable her give them the care they needed. Some 5,000 were eventually rescued many had to be destroyed, but the remainder eventually gained an honourable retirement.

Pictures of these broken down horses at the point of rescue are in sharp contrast to the images on this thread.

See http://www.thebrooke...o-the-telegraph

Ken

[Simon Mills]

I don't know if there are any specific figures for the Western Front, officers could bring their horses home, but these, and a few other riding horses, were the exception. Those that were no longer required by the Army were cast and branded 'C', rather than go to the expense of shipping them home they were sold in theatre.

Ken,

Thanks for the confirmation -- it certainly seems to tally with the details in the 106 Brigade war diary. As soon as the horses were no longer required they were either returned to central depots for disposal or sold to French farmers at market. I don't know how the French would have treated them but I assume that the conditions would have been reasonably similar to those in England?

It's a sad story though, unlike in Hollywood where everyone usually lives happy ever after...

S.

[Steven Broomfield]

I don't know how the French would have treated them but I assume that the conditions would have been reasonably similar to those in England?

S.

Sadly not. Check out page 37 of the book here http://www.bluecross.org.uk/95170/the-blue-cross-at-war-book.html

Incidentally, I got home earlier than expected, so had a look. I am afraid there is less information than I'd thought, but the 11th Hussars (in Germany) retained 87 horses for the post war army; 112 were sold in the UK; and 288 sold ioverseas.

The 7th Dragoon Guards confirm what has been said regarding sales to officers. Additioanlly the cadre of each regiment returning home was allowed to take 40 chargers and "a certain number of mares was selected to be sent home for breeding purposes". When the regiment left Belgium in early '19, 78 horses were handed over to the 17th Lancers and 76 to the Inniskillings (6th Dragoons).

[auchonvillerssomme]

this is from Statisics

2

[nigelfe]

The Army had a system for classifying horse. Obviously officer's chargers were one type. Not sure what cavalry horses were. However, the big users of horses were artillery, not only did their units have more horses than cavalry, there were also many times the number of units.

Heavy draft horses were used for heavy artillery, but mostly for ammunition wagons in the ammo columns. Most artillery horses were light draught horse or light vanners (ie they towed the baker's van, etc). In a field or RHA bty, apart from the chargers, all horses were the light vanner type.

[Simon Mills]

Interesting figures -- especially the reference to the RFA horses as for most of the war my grandfather was a driver.

I'll definitely keep it in mind when I see the film.

S.

[bob7bob]

Steven Spielburg was interviewd on the BBC earlier this week. He explained that War Horse was not a war film. He said his intention was to "show how an animal can bring people together".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16466772

[Seadog]

Might be worth bearing in mind in this erudite discussion that:

1.0 Its only a film

and

2.0 It is a childrens book

On my local BBC news it was reported that the Tank Museum Bovington has purchased the replica Tank from the film and rightly delighted they are too. The Tank looks superb and actually works so will be an asset to this excellent museum

Norman

[kenf48]

The Army had a system for classifying horse. Obviously officer's chargers were one type. Not sure what cavalry horses were. However, the big users of horses were artillery, not only did their units have more horses than cavalry, there were also many times the number of units.

Heavy draft horses were used for heavy artillery, but mostly for ammunition wagons in the ammo columns. Most artillery horses were light draught horse or light vanners (ie they towed the baker's van, etc). In a field or RHA bty, apart from the chargers, all horses were the light vanner type.

I think the classification for cavalry horses was, as shown in the statistics posted above, riding horses (their italics). As with heavy and light draught no doubt there were other classifications within that, for example I was once invited to ride at Sandhurst where I was told the horses were perfectly sound (awesome actually!) but for one reason or another not suitable for ceremonial duties so were used for teaching.

Thank you av for posting the statistics, as mentioned on another thread it's important not to forget the work of the mules as well as the horses, I wonder if they are included in the number of 'animals' as they are noted on p.2 which gives the classification. Perhaps interesting to note given the scale of purchases and casualties recorded in the figures that the Germans could not replace their horses due to the blockade and as a result in preparation for round two started buying up large stocks in the 1930s.

There is, incidentally a similar thread running on the Military Horse Forum - though they have called it 'sale of horses after WW1' which has at least one good news story to relieve the gloom. http://www.militaryh...php?f=3&t=11246

Ken

Ken

[Beau Geste]

It made me think about the total mistreatment of horses,

Hello Rees,

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "the total mistreatment of horses". Are you suggesting that all horses were mistreated or that horses that were mistreated, were mistreated in every conceivable way ? Either way, it seems to me to be a questionable generalisation.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Might be worth bearing in mind in this erudite discussion that:

1.0 Its only a film

and

2.0 It is a childrens book

Norman

Hello Seadog,

Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. Incidentally I loved your earlier posts especially number #56.

Harry