War Horse

[Ice Tiger]

I would be interested to know David Kenyon's opinion of the finished film given his expert knowledge in regard to Great War cavalry and the fact that he was a historical advisor for this film.

Andy

[Raster Scanning]

I thought the 'nod' to "Gone With The Wind" at the end was particularly interesting! I am afraid, for me, the whole thing was sentimental claptrap! Nice horse though!

[Tom W.]

I thought the 'nod' to "Gone With The Wind" at the end was particularly interesting! I am afraid, for me, the whole thing was sentimental claptrap! Nice horse though!

I recently bought a DVD of Zeppelin, with Michael York. Yes, the plot was ridiculous, and the uniforms were all wrong, as were the weapons. But it still holds up all these years later as great entertainment that doesn't preach or grind your face into a wet, mushy message.

I'd love to see a patriotic, flag-waving film about the Zeebrugge raid. No blathering about how there's no glory in war. In the photos of the aftermath of the raid, the British sailors and marines are all smiling proudly at their completion of a bold mission. Nobody's sobbing on camera about the tragic waste.

In 2001 there was a made-for-cable movie about the Lost Battalion, but it's so ham fisted that it's impossible to watch twice. It's grim and heavy and humorless, one dirge-like note throughout.

I thought Saving Private Ryan was as ham fisted, which is why I didn't like it. Somehow the French director of A Very Long Engagement managed to convey horror, injustice, waste, etc., without preaching or losing sight of the entertainment value of the film. It had a wacky, surreal quality that big-name American filmmakers can't seem to manage. We either go for the glumness of Saving Private Ryan, or the horrifying, lowbrow garbage of Inglorious Basterds.

I bought the collection of The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, but I can't watch it. This scene is typical. It's just too overwrought for me. The music, the acting, the histrionics--all of it just somehow rings false to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASg0H-XsQ5E

[peterhogg]

i've defended Speilberg to an extent on the other thread (with respect to Empire of the Sun, Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List) though I do agree with some of the criticism--heavy-handedness, sentimentality etc.... I still have to go see the damn movie having suggested it might be good.

I do find some reactions interesting since and fun to read. While I don't agree with some concerning SPR, I do understand where you are coming from. Now, Titanic makes me want to cut my own head off with a cheese-grater rather than be forced to see it again, even hear it's name uttered....

As for war films, while SPR, to my mind anyway, must receive at least technical and cinematic credit for the opening and closing combat scenes, I would never think to compare it with what I feel is one of the best war films, Malick's Thin Red Line from that same year. Folks either love or hate that one. Not a date movie, no sir, not a date movie......

To be fair, they are quite close (compared to New Mexico and New Hampshire).

Now hold on, there's a New Mexico?

[Steven Broomfield]

allt his sort of thing should be put to the film makers BEFORE the film is released.

Question 1: By whom?

Question 2: At what point? If the movie maker doesn't ask, and no-one has access to the production while in process, when does this input happen?

Question 3: Do you really think Spielberg would care? A has so frequently been pointed out, he's making a movie, not a history lesson.

[Steven Broomfield]

Now hold on, there's a New Mexico?

I think they stumbled upon it by accident while looking for cheese.

Incidentally (for TomW): what's your opinion of the greatest War Movie ever? (The Colditz Story, in case you're in any doubt).

[Heid the Ba]

I hold out no hope for War Horse, but will no doubt be dragooned into watching it by the same people who keep giving me Chris Ryan books (which go to the charity shop unread).

I did see "Shaving Ryan's Privates" which was surprisingly well acted and understated for a Spielberg.

[Tom W.]

Incidentally (for TomW): what's your opinion of the greatest War Movie ever? (The Colditz Story, in case you're in any doubt).

Terrific movie indeed. One of the best scenes:

[Guest FionaJLyons]

I am really not sure where to make this post but it does relate to horses so here goes...

We have recently received anecdotal evidence (passed down through two generations) that horses were brought together, broken, shod and sent to the great war from our farm and I would like to find out if there is any hard evidence to support this.

The farm is called Rookery Farm and it is situated on the Mendip Hills at Binegar which is near Shepton Mallet and Wells in Somerset. The Lyons family has been at Rookery for 67 years but it was previously owned by the James family who were horse dealers amongst other things.

There were railway stations at Binegar and Maesbury (sometimes spelt Masbury) and we are given to understand that horses were ridden/led to these stations and transferred to Southampton via the Somerset and Dorset railway

.

Is anyone able to point me in the right direction for my research please?

Many, many thanks.

Fiona Lyons

fionajlyons AT hotmail DOT co DOT uk

Edited 9 January , 2012 by FionaJLyons
Email address editted to stop spammers

[Guest exuser1]

Intrestingly you rate Colditz Story , on meeting a few of the previous inmates ,including Pat Reid they thought it was awful and nothing like the reality of the real prison ,also the uniforms are rubbish ,and no excuse as it was only made within a few years of WW2 ,for a excellent war film try They Were Not Divided

[kenf48]

I am really not sure where to make this post but it does relate to horses so here goes...

We have recently received anecdotal evidence (passed down through two generations) that horses were brought together, broken, shod and sent to the great war from our farm and I would like to find out if there is any hard evidence to support this.

I don't believe there are any surviving records that are readily accessible but there may be. What is certain is if you had horses, especially draught horses then the Army would have come calling. Your first port of call should be your local county record office and then perhaps contemporary newspapers.

There is some information on the process in this recent thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172819&st=0&p=1678534&fromsearch=1entry1678534

and elsewhere on the forum including a current exhibition at the National Army Museum http://www.nam.ac.uk/ (whatever the critical merits of the film there is no denying it has caused an explosion of interes tin the topic of Animals (esp Horses) at War. In the eighties Jilly Cooper wrote a book on the subject which was published by the IWM and there are many accounts in the literature for example the difficulty faced by farmers getting the harvest in in 1914 as the Army had requisitioned all the horses, and in Morecambe all the horse drawn trams stopped running![Lyn Macdonald 1914).

Ken

[Rees]

It made me think about the total mistreatment of horses, and the price they paid as a result of our madness. I don't think this generation realizes the extent to which horses were used.

Another good one, Beneath Hill 60! an Australian movie released last year. Maybe a better account historically. But would like to hear your opinions on Hill 60.

Hll 60 was where my grandfather's brother was killed, so a criticism of facts would help.

[Tom W.]

Intrestingly you rate Colditz Story , on meeting a few of the previous inmates ,including Pat Reid they thought it was awful and nothing like the reality of the real prison ,also the uniforms are rubbish ,and no excuse as it was only made within a few years of WW2 ,for a excellent war film try They Were Not Divided

Sure, but in terms of entertainment value it's fine. As I said earlier, I like Zeppelin, even though the Germans are wearing World War II-style American gas masks and the British use slings to throw their grenades. The plot is laughable, but it's a great, fun, exciting film.

I far prefer The Great Escape over The Colditz Story, by the way.

[britman]

One of my favorites, is Stalag 17 (1953). William Holden did an excellent job in that movie, with a well earned Oscar for it.

Also DasBoot was pretty good IMO.

[Simon Mills]

We have recently received anecdotal evidence (passed down through two generations) that horses were brought together, broken, shod and sent to the great war from our farm and I would like to find out if there is any hard evidence to support this...

...There were railway stations at Binegar and Maesbury (sometimes spelt Masbury) and we are given to understand that horses were ridden/led to these stations and transferred to Southampton via the Somerset and Dorset railway.

As an afterthought, how many of the horses were actually shipped home again? My grandfather was in the RFA and his unit war diary refers to horses being transferred to various bases, the Animal Collecting Camp (at Douai) or even being sold at Tournai. There was also a Remount Depot at Rouen.

Does anyone know how many horses were actually shipped back after the war?

S.

PS: Just saw this link on MSN: http://movies.uk.msn.com/features/lovely-horses-but-is-there-enough-war

[peterhogg]

Sure, but in terms of entertainment value it's fine. As I said earlier, I like Zeppelin, even though the Germans are wearing World War II-style American gas masks and the British use slings to throw their grenades. The plot is laughable, but it's a great, fun, exciting film.

I far prefer The Great Escape over The Colditz Story, by the way.

Like Bridge on the River Kwai, The Great Escape is one of those films I can watch over and over and with which I never grow tired.

[fatford41]

An excellant, first class movie. Extremely well done - entertains the entire family and accurate to the book. I don't recall a better world War One film, includiung Hill 60, which was only good.

For those of you who didn't like the movie, can't at all imagine what you were thinking. For those of you "vowed not to see it" it's your loss, and a great one at that.

Cheers

Bob

[Tom W.]

For those of you "vowed not to see it" it's your loss, and a great one at that.

Judging by the ads on TV and the radio, it actually won't be a great loss to me. I can barely sit through them.

It's terrific that you loved it. I love the band Art of Noise, which many people loathe. I would never tell you that you're suffering a great loss in life by not listening to the live version of "Close to the Edit," because it may not appeal to you. You may prefer the Beatles, Aretha Franklin, or Lady Gaga.

There's room for all of us here, War Horse lovers and War Horse missers alike.

[Guest exuser1]

Tom and for my sins i love Kellys Heros ,in fact more care has gone in to the kit on that film than many serious efforts ,Where Eagels Dare ! a great movie which happens to be in WW2 , the thing that seems common with the thread here and the anti Spilberg is the smaltz and saccarine of his films ,which i agree is getting worse as he gets older ,this i have allways put down to the fact he cant get away from trying to copy John Ford ,hes allways makeing the Searches from a diffrent angle ,now hes done Searches meets Horse soldiers .

but i must say its a very strong director who when makeing a war movie does not fail at some point to try for the anti war why are we here or doing this speech ?

[Steven Broomfield]

As an afterthought, how many of the horses were actually shipped home again? My grandfather was in the RFA and his unit war diary refers to horses being transferred to various bases, the Animal Collecting Camp (at Douai) or even being sold at Tournai. There was also a Remount Depot at Rouen.

Does anyone know how many horses were actually shipped back after the war?

S.

Simon: I shan't be in a position to look for a few days, but several of the cavalry regimental histories I have list disposal of the horses they had at the war's end. Relatively few, sadly, were returned.

My employers were involved at the time in purchasing and returning to UK horses which were cast in France, Belgium and Germany; a very upsetting business for all concerned.

[healdav]

Intrestingly you rate Colditz Story , on meeting a few of the previous inmates ,including Pat Reid they thought it was awful and nothing like the reality of the real prison ,also the uniforms are rubbish ,and no excuse as it was only made within a few years of WW2 ,for a excellent war film try They Were Not Divided

I think the film as a whole is utter rubbish; why did they have to improve the real story?

However, the setting is spectacularly accurate. When I went to Colditz I thought I had stepped on to the film set.

[Seadog]

I fink dat my fav war filum is doh Red Baron it is hysterically akurut an da nursse is great!

Fanks

Norman

Filim buff

[Tom W.]

but i must say its a very strong director who when makeing a war movie does not fail at some point to try for the anti war why are we here or doing this speech ?

I guess it just frosts me because it doesn't happen in real life. There's a famous helmet-cam video of British soldiers in Afghanistan who realize that the Taliban are only meters away, about to attack, and the squad leader says calmly, "Right, we're gonna earn our pay."

Soldiers of the western democracies are brave, heroic, amazing people who deserve better than the portrayals of them created by pampered, multimillionaire filmmakers blubbering away didactically, lecturing us as always about how we need to change every single aspects of our lives because we're just not good enough.

I recently learned that the movie Patton, directed by Franklin J. Schaffner, was intended as an anti-Patton film that backfired spectacularly. It was made in 1970, so the producers were trying to capitalize on antiwar fever, but it turns out that even though people already know war is hell and they were sick to death of Vietnam, they admire and respect fearless, unapologetic warriors who fight for the cause of good and who fight to win.

There was a recent made-for-cable movie about Eisenhower preparing for D-Day, with Tom Selleck as Ike. There was no speechifying. The only "antiwar" message in it came when Eisenhower was being driven past a group of paratroopers about to board a transport plane, and he told his driver to stop so he could talk to them. The driver said, "Sir, you don't want to talk to them, because a lot of them are going to be killed."

And Ike-Selleck said, "That's why I need to talk to them." So he got out and went over and asked their names and shared a smoke with them. It was much more effective and moving than all the blathering and spelling out we see in so many other war movies. The Eisenhower movie was about his strength in taking on the responsibility for organizing a monumental task and not shrinking from the cold, hard fact that he was sending men to their deaths one way or another. But it had to be done.

I guess that's why I hate all the antiwar yapping, especially in movies about the world wars. The wars had to be fought. The enemy had to be stopped. The antiwar message seems to be that nothing is worth fighting for, which I find an obscene sentiment coming from a rich, safe filmmaker who depends on the military to protect his wealth.

[Heid the Ba]

It made me think about the total mistreatment of horses, and the price they paid as a result of our madness. I don't think this generation realizes the extent to which horses were used.

In the early 20th century horses were generally tools to be used no more. Farmers treated them the same way they treated other animals then and now, as an expendable means of making money. Workmen treated horses with the same care they treat their white vans now. Horses were ubiquitous and were treated as just another piece of equipment, they were not pets or friends. Officers or cavalrymen who had the same mount for years may have felt differently but to most of the Army in wartime a horse was a horse and would be replaced. Let's not romanticise this, yes soldiers wrote of their fondness for the horses but they showed no hesitation in putting them in harm's way.

I'm not sure what madness you mean; Britain fullfilling a treaty obligation to defend Belgian neutrality or the madness of those in charge of horses exposing them to death and injury?

[Guest exuser1]

agree with all you state Tom ,as an apprentice back in the 70s worked with a lot of ex WW2 and post war lads ,i rember one lad who was in Palastine in 46 ,he was telling me some stories of the night clubs and also doing battlefield clearence stuff ,when he mentioned being on night patrol on the Treaty Road ,his number 2 on the Bren took a round from out of no where to the head ,i said "dave that must have been awfull what did you say ?" Dave looked at me and said "Thank xxxx thats not me " Speilberg would have had every one emoting fo at least 2 reels !

Have not seen the ike thing is it avaiable on DVD ?

There is a great line in Ice Cold in Alex at the begining when the RAMC officer gets blown up in his command vehicle ,Harry Andrews comment "Theres a brand new tool kit in there !"