D

[CROONAERT]

...and to show all three in relation to each other, La Chapelle is denoted by the blue "blob", Hill 60 by the yellow "blob" and Hill 62 by the red "blob". (Sanctuary Wood is to the immediate north of Hill 62).

Dave.

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

It's holiday season at CWGC as elsewhere. Four years was the longest I have waited for an answer to a query - but I got it (delay not due to CWGC though).

I already have a beard - it helps!

[Chris]

Geordie.

If you know where his family lived in 1918, it may be worth trying to find the Absent Voters List for that area for that year. This will list the people not able to vote (ie service personnel included), and often give details of the unit they were serving in at the time, and possibly a Regt number. Problem however is finding which archive/library the relevant Absent Voter List is held in.

Chris

[sandyford]

And - once again.

The absent voters list for Newcastle is in Newcastle Central Library - this time in a book not microfilm but you do need to know the street.

I only got the regiment and number, which I think you already know, for some people from these listings. One or two had the company.

Kate

[Steve Bramley]

Geordie,

To add to what Chris mentioned about the 1/5th Lincolns at Gommecourt. We have found several examples like this in the 5th battalion. Their first major action was at the Hohenzollern Redoubt at Loos on Oct 13th 1915. This was the fourth attempt by the British to take this area and all were abstract failures.

The Lincolns (part of the 46th Division) were decimated in no mans land and their dead lay out amongst the dead of the previous attempts. 90% of those killed have no known grave. However a few have graves, some in Arras Rd Cemetery, Roclincourt and others in Caberet Rouge, Souchez.

I have made a few assumptions about those that lie in these cemeteries. Perhaps they were wounded very early in the attack which enabled their comrades to rescue them and get them to a casualty clearing station where they later succumbed to their wounds. Wounded, but managed to get back to their own lines after dark and again died later the same day. Or were killed by shelling/machine gun fire/their own gas, while still in their trenches awaiting zero hour.

We have compiled a data base and noticed this on several later occasions.

Something like this may have happened to Pte Monaghan. Was there a casualty clearing station near La Chapelle Farm? Does anybody know?

As Terry suggsets patience is the key with the CWGC but their findings could well shed more light on this for you. I'm hoping to go and look at the Lincs Bn's War Diaries next week, i'll see what the 1st Bn was up to on that night.

Some of course where not as 'lucky'

[Steve Bramley]

Geordie old son,

I naturally assumed that you had looked on the mother site, or i would have mentioned this earlier. Have a gander at this link. 28th Div, mainsite All the brigades from this division were moved temporarily. The Lincolns were also moved (to the 28th) to cover this.

The 2nd NF move did not happen until the 23rd Feb according to this. But this may be wrong, Chris the website owner is not perfect, he even has the 1/5th Lincolns down as formed at Lincoln when it should be GRIMSBY So this date needs verifying.

You are probably quite right about there being no CCS at Le Chapelle (and thus an expert, wor lad) but i was just trying to provoke a few thoughts and ideas,

Cheers pal,

Steve.

[Aurel Sercu]

So you could be right Dave the headstones could just be individual memorials containing no remains

All 'Special Memorials' are headstones for commemoration purposes only. There are never any bodies beneath them.

They signify a lost grave in the same cemetery or one lost elsewhere.

Terry (and everybody else),

As to these Special Memorials, there is something I have never fully understood, and everybody else I ask does not have a clear answer. Do you ?

I understand that beneath Special Memorials (Duhallows) there never are never remains. That's clear.

But near such Special Memorial there often (always?) are a number of headstones, with the names of these men who originally were buried at the cemetery mentioned on that Duhallow.

I have always thought that the remains of these men indeed are beneath these headstones, but not exactly beneath that specific headstone bearing his name. Just somewhere in that row. Am I right ? Now after reading your posting I am inclined to believe that there are no remains beneath these headstones ...

(The case I have in mind is a Special Memorial + headstones at the back of New Irish Farm Cemetery (St.-Jan, Ypres), referring to men originally buried at the German Cemetery at Lomme-la-Litière (near Lille).)

Aurel

[Terry Denham]

Aurel

There are no remains under any Special Memorial whether they are individual headstones in a cemetery or a row of headstones near to a Duhallow block (so named after the first one in Duhallow ADS Cemetery).

There are several types of Special Memorial as denoted by the superscription. I'll post a full list of these shortly when I can get to my references.

They can signify that remains exist in the cemetery in which they are placed - either under one of the 'Unknown' headstones or in an undiscovered location within the cemetery. At other times they signify a lost burial in another cemetery - often through shelling etc.

They are simply CWGC's means of commemorating a man whose grave was once known but is now lost as opposed to those named on memorials to the missing who are men who were never found or, at least, never found and identified.

If men were buried in a row where their place in the row was unknown as you describe, the headstone would probably be inscribed "Buried near this spot" - as indeed is that of my own uncle in Normandy who was buried in just such a situation.

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel

There are no remains under any Special Memorial whether they are individual headstones in a cemetery or a row of headstones near to a Duhallow block (so named after the first one in Duhallow ADS Cemetery).

There are several types of Special Memorial as denoted by the superscription. I'll post a full list of these shortly when I can get to my references.

They can signify that remains exist in the cemetery in which they are placed - either under one of the 'Unknown' headstones or in an undiscovered location within the cemetery. At other times they signify a lost burial in another cemetery - often through shelling etc.

(...)

Terry,

So very clarifying. As always... Thanks !

And yes, I would like to see the list of Special Memorials indeed, if it doesn't take too much of your time. (But I'm sure that other Forum members would appreciate too.)

Actually, with regard to headstones near Duhallows I had thought indeed of the possibility that the man was buried somewhere else in that same cemetery, but beneath a headstone A Soldier of the Great War... But someone had told me I was wrong.

Now I know that maybe the man is not in that same cemetery, but in another cemetery. Sad... I mean for relatives coming to the place and trying to believe that somewhere within that cemetery are the remains of granddad or greatuncle.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Thats the same as the ones here at Hooge Crater Cemetery Aurel

Is it Hooge are Hoge?

A special memorial of 12 headstones? for those from La Chapelle Farm

If no bodies there why not just a plinth?

And whats a Duhallow (full meaning)

Regards J.Lad (J for Jarra)

Geordie,

Old spelling : Hooge ; modern spelling (post WW2) : Hoge.

But it hardly matters. For all English speaking people (+ all Ypres people knowing how hopeless all British attempts are to speak Flemish) pronounce it like "huge" (without the -j-sound).

A Duhallow ? As Terry explained it, named after Duhallow ADS Cem. (just north of Ypres, between Ypres and Essex Farm Cem. + John McCrae site). Attached a photo of the cemetery. Unfortunately not showing the Duhallow itself (which is, encircled by headstones, just outside the left bottom corner of the photo.)

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

So ok then our lad Franks still out at La chapelle Farm

Geordie,

If I understood Terry correctly Frank's remains may be at Hooge Crater Cem. ! (Though not beneath the headstone bearing his name.)

Aurel

[Terry Denham]

Aurel

No. Geordie was referring originally to a headstone which is a Special Memorial to a man known to have been buried at La Chapelle Farm and whose grave is now lost. SMs to men in other cemeteries always state so at the top or on a nearby Duhallow block or other device.

I don't think any relatives would be confused as to whether a man named on a Special Memorial would or would not be buried in the cemetery.

If he was buried in the same cemetery as the SM, it would have a superscription along the lines of "Believed to be buried in this cemetery" or "Known to be buried in this cemetery". I have even seen one (in La Clytte) with "Believed to be buried in Row xyz".

[Terry Denham]

A further comment on the Hooge/Hoge discussion.

As far as CWGC is concerned, for their own cemeteries, they use the name as it was spelt when the cemetery was built (Hooge in this case). For cemeteries which they do not own (communal/churchyards etc), they use the current name as used by the owners.

Therefore the following are the correct CWGC names for these locations. There are several othere examples.

Poperinge Communal Cemetery

but

Poperinghe New Military Cemetery

Westouter Churchyard

but

Westoutre British Cemetery

Just to make life difficult!

[Aurel Sercu]

Terry,

Thanks for the spelling of village and town names comment. I had often wondered ...

As to the Special Memorials ... The men buried there or not ? I'm afraid this is getting beyond me ... Probably too hot this afternoon. No sun though, yet over 30 degrees C.

I'm off with my bike now. To some cemeteries in the Salient. Hoping there won't be too many Duhallows. Otherwise my brain temperature may increase...

Aurel

[Terry Denham]

The first two Special Memorials in the row are to men lost in Kruiseecke German Cemetery. The next twelve are to La Chapelle Farm. The plan of the cemetery shows fourteen SMs in a row. Maybe No.1 is a gap between the two sets of SMs.

A Duhallow block is a block of Portland limestone upon which are carved the names of cemeteries containing graves now lost. There is usually a row of Special memorial headstones near it bearing the casualties' names.

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

There is a pic of a Duhallow block in this thread - third pic down.

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...580&hl=duhallow

I believe 'Duhallow' was the name of a hunt in Ireland after which the original cemetery was named.

[andy 1]

hi everybody

seeing as how your posting about special memorials.

this is a special memorial to a man from the 1st bn lincolnshire regiment who fell on the somme.

he his believed to be buried in the gordon dump cemetery.

regards

andy

[Aurel Sercu]

Terry,

You must be thinking I'm a slow pupil, but I want to be absolutely sure.

So, this is about the Special Memorials again, but more specifically the Duhallow block. Let's talk about the Duhallow block at Duhallow ADS Cemetery (Ypres) (see photo below).

The text says : "To the memory of these 29 soldiers of the British Empire killed in action 1917 and 1918 and buried at the time in Fuselier Wood Cemetery which was destroyed in later battles."

There are 29 headstones arranged in a semi-circle behind the Duhallow block.

My question : There are no remains buried beneath these headstones. Correct ? (Actually you have already answered that question, but ...)

But then my next question is : where are these remains if they are not in Duhallow ADS Cemetery ?

You probably will say : they are still there, where Fusilier Wood Cemetery was.

I'm asking because I know (from Michael Scott, The Ypres Salient) that Fusilier Wood Cemetery (which was at Hollebeke) contained 67 men (66 British + 1 Australian).

67 (total) - 29 (headstones near Duhallow block) = 38.

So after the Armistice 38 were reburied, in my opinion in Duhallow ADS Cem. Maybe these 38 still could be identified, maybe not (in which case buried as an unknown soldier).

The 29 whose names are on headstones behind the Duhallow block were not buried there, because they could not be found back at the time ? And (and I don't want to sound macabre) their bones could not even be collected, having been shattered after subsequent shelling ? And remained there ?

Sorry for bothering you with these unimportant technical details, but I have been asked this question once or twice and didn't know the answer.

Ten to midnight (Belgian time). And hoping that these Duhallow blocks won't appear in your dreams (nightmares ?). For it's a heavy thing to get off your chest !

Aurel

[Terry Denham]

Aurel

You've got it! Right on all counts.

The only thing I would add is that sometimes the bodies simply could not be found whether through subsequent destruction by battle or through inaccurate information as to the burial location.

Sleep well.

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Terry.

Glad the Duhallow block problem has been solved.

And I slept well indeed...

Aurel

[Steve Bramley]

Geordie,

If you're still about, My apologies. I went to the Lincs museum today and had pre-ordered the 1st Bn diary as well as others. Unfortunately the diary was being used by the curator who was supposed to be bringing it to me when he had finished, but he never managed it, so i'm afraid it will have to wait until another day, i wont forget, cos i'm interested now!

Regards,

Steve

[CROONAERT]

Z Z Z

Sorry Geordie. Looking at this and several other of your threads, we seem to be boring you? .

My apologies to you for trying to assist in answering some of your questions,

Dave.

[NIGEL]

Who you on about Dave i cant see who Geordie is ?

[Neil Burns]

hi Dave,

I think this gentleman has decided to take his crusade(s) elsewhere.

rather strange that his outrage over past events seems to justify his rudeness to people like yourself who were simply trying to help him.

Take Care Buddy,

Neil

[shelley]

I would like to express my thanks to all the Pals who went" over and above the call" in this thread.

I have a better understanding thanks to all of you.

I am sure many of us appreciate all the research that was done here.

cheers Shelley