D

[Guest Geordie Lad]

Z Z Z

[Terry Denham]

Geordie.

The reason that these men are not on the Menin Gate is that their bodies were not 'missing' - at least at one point.

When the army came to clear many cemeteries after the war and to concentrate the graves into larger and more manageable ones, some bodies could not be found where they had been buried. This was often due to subsequent shelling destroying the graves or to wrong location information being recorded at the time.

In these cases the casualty did have a known grave but it was subsequently lost. The practice of CWGC is such circumstances is to erect a 'Special Memorial' (there are several types) to commemorate the 'lost' man in a nearby cemetery. These memorials sometimes take the form of a normal headstone but with a superscription saying where the body was known to be buried. Sometimes, if many men are involved, it will take the form of a block (a Duhallow block) which gives the names of the cemeteries where the men were originally buried.

Only those men who have either never been found (or found but never identified) are included on the Memorials to the Missing.

Obviously, those from the German cemetery could well have been PoWs if they had only just been captured when they died so near the Front but, more likely, they were UK bodies found and buried by the Germans.

[CROONAERT]

Does anybody know what La Chapelle Farm was?

According to what I read somewhere the cemetery at La Chapelle Farm was between between Chester Farm and Blauwepoort Farm?

You got the location spot-on, Geordie.

This map dates from 1917.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

Where the 12 casualties from La Chapelle Farm, prisoners of the germans, that had died of wounds or had they been killed in the german trenches and the germans buried  them ?

Was that area of Zillebeke in german hands at the time (unsure?)

Geordie.

(Just been mulling over your post). I think (but I stand to be corrected!) that La Chappelle Farm was in British hands for all of the war apart from a while in 1918. The soldiers on the special memorial would probably have been killed in or near the front line and buried ,by the British, in this battlefield cemetery just behind the front-line. Maybe their graves were destroyed or lost during the time that the 1918 fighting took place in the area of La Chappelle, or during the German occupation? The IWGC would have known of their existance at this time, but, after not being to find any of the graves post-war, erected the special memorial at Hooge to commemorate them.

Just speculating.

Dave.

[Steve Bramley]

Wor Lad,

The regular Lincs Battalions are not my speciality but i'm sure i can find out some details about what action they were involved in or their whereabouts around the time that you are interested in.

I'm really busy at work until the middle of next week but in the meantime i'll bring your post to the attention of fellow Lincolnshire Pal, Chris, who may be able to help.

I'm sure somebody else will get back to you before next week but i'll check back when i've got chance.

Regards,

Steve.

[Terry Denham]

So you could be right Dave the headstones could just be individual memorials containing no remains

All 'Special Memorials' are headstones for commemoration purposes only. There are never any bodies beneath them.

They signify a lost grave in the same cemetery or one lost elsewhere.

[sandyford]

Geordie

I am a Geordie Lass and am researching 6th Battalion N.F.

The War Diaries of all the Battalions are on Microfilm in Newcastle Central Library and are also at the Northumbrian Archives at Melton Park. The coverage of the 6th Battalion is the whole lot starting in April 1915 when they left camp in England. Can't be sure of the dates covered for each of the other battalions.

That will only be of use to you if you are a Geordie Lad who is not exiled.

If you are exiled I will look up anything you want but will not be going for a day or two.

Kate

[sandyford]

P.S.

It is rare to have mentions of individual other ranks in the War Diaries, so there will probably not be a personal mention, but the 6th Batt. has casualty lists as a monthly appendix.

Kate

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

Glad to see you have got a copy of SDGW. You will find it invaluable in your researches.

Only a slight word of caution. It is not complete and has many men missing - although they tend to be those that died in the UK or late in the war of illness.

[sandyford]

Went downstairs in time to see the King of the Toon get a yellow card and be taken off. Then Rangers scored and it looked like it might be heading for penalties. Phew.

It all ended happily though.

I had been going to Melton Park to look at the War Diaries, after finding nothing much under Northumberland Fusiliers in the Central Library. One day this year I looked at the index cards for Territorials, I think, and there were the films listed. They are in the Local Studies section, if you want to look yourself.

Now I just ask at the desk in Local Studies and they are very helpful.

I will have a look around the dates you mention when I am next in.

Kate

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

SDGW also has some names who didn't die (or so I am told - never found one myself).

If you can't find any names on CWGC, let me know and I will check for you via means other than the internet site. Email me off-Forum with the names you think are missing.

They are all usually there but with a variation of spelling. However, sometimes you can find a genuine non-commemorated soldier and then the task starts to get him accepted and added to CWGC.

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

Got the list.

Pity about the numbers as that makes the search much quicker. Still, I'll have a go later tonight.

I think the SDGW program is designed to stop you cutting & pasting but you can print out searches.

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

As I suspected most on your list were spelling errors on SDGW or other discrepancies. I have a few more to do tomorrow (too knackered now) but I list those below to demonstrate how you have to be wary of spellings.

From your list.... (CWGC reference second)

Brooks = BROOKES

Smailes = SMALLES

Delvin = DEVLIN (as per SDGW & CGWC)

Hodd = HOOD

Butler = MUNDAY (served as BUTLER)

Titterton = Correct and is on CWGC as a Drummer (Dr) not a Doctor

Makin = MACKIN

Birkett = BIRKITT

Ferninger = FIRMINGER

McCleanghan = McCLENAGHAN

Miller = JOHNSTON (served as MILLER)

Trall = THRALL

Ayres = EYRE

Erby = ERLY

Whitford = WHITEFORD

Barraclough = BARROWCLOTH

Ealy = ELEY

Sowell = SEWELL

Tilliotson = TILLOTSON

Six more to go tomorrow.

[Chris]

Hi Geordie

I have had a look at the Regt History of the Lincs Regt by Simpson, to see what the 1st Lincs were up to in late Feb and early march 1915. It seems they were ordered to the Ypres area on Feb 17th, and moved into their new trenches on the 21st then. It states the trenches were in a bad way, and that they were in places very close to the Germans, at one point only 15 yards, with the Germans in places actually to the rear of them. B Comapany held the left of the line (dosent say where) and C Company the Right on the Bluff. B Coy lost eleven men killed, shot through the head in the first half hour, and later a German raid took place. Only other mention in this period is death of Captain Grantham (C Coy) on the 27th Feb by shellfire. Around middle of March the Battalion moved to the Hill 60 sector. It would seem from this that the men you are interested in were casulties from the above tour, and killed whilst in the British trenches by the daily risks of trench warfare.

Hope of use, i am sure the war diary will give additional info and will keep my eyes open for info on the men you listed.

Chris

[koyli]

hi Geordie,

according to Ray Westlake's "British battalions on the Western Front Januari to June 1915" :

February :

Moved forward in buses to Vlamertinghe 2nd then took over trenches near Zwarteleen and to the south and south-east of Zillebeke. Brig. H.R.Sandilands records in his book The fifth in the Great War that the line taken over was 1,140 yards in length and ran from opposite Hill 60 to the left boundary of the 28th Division. Relieved by the 1st Welsh 4th and moved back to support line at Zilebeke. Casualties from first tour in the trenches - 6 other ranks killed, two officers, 27 other ranks wounded. Carried out further tours in same area then moved in reserve at Ouderdom 11th. To Ypres 14th then later in dug-outs on canal bank near St Eloi. 'A' and 'B' companies withdrew to Bedford House during night 15th-16th, then 'C' and 'D' companies took part in counter-attack on 'O' trench. Withdrew later to Bedford House. C.O. Lt Col S.H. Enderby(wounded) among the casualties. Took over front line North of Canal 17th. Relieved by 1st suffolks 20th and to Kruisstraat. Moved forward again, later to La Chapelle Farm, and during night took part in attack on 'Z' trench. 'A' Company webt forward at 12.30 am followezd by 'C' and 'D'. Brig. Sandilands records that the ground to be crossed was a quagmire, the troops struggling on to within a close distance of their objective. An attempt to charge the enemy's line was met by heavy fire-two officers being wounded and the leading waves almost wiped out.'B' company was later sent in, but a renewed attack at 2 am also failed. Battalion withdrew at 5 am to Kruisstraat. Casualties - 3 oficers wounded, 6 other ranks killed, 61 wounded, 40 missing. .......

Lawry

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

Two more from your list

Kennersley = KINNERSLEY

McDonald = Is listed by CWGC as such

There are candidates for the remaining four but they have differences in info (date, number etc) and will need further research.

Hope this helps.

[koyli]

there is a map in the East Yorkshire reht Hist 14-18. unfortunatly my scanner is on the blink. This map however shows you exactly where Z trench is. it was also called International trench, because the Germans held the middle part.

Cheers

lawry

[sandyford]

Geordie

Been to the library today. Bad news.

All the War Diaries for the N.F. There are 32 Battalions I think on 18 films in Local studies, starting with 1st & 2nd Batt.

1st Battalion starts in August 1914 and goes right through the war. The parts I read had monthly individually dated and named casualty appendices.

2nd Battalion War Diary starts in APRIL 1915 and goes through to June 1919. I have looked at the film and it just starts quite abruptly in April 1915. Perhaps the earlier part was not filmed or the handwritten or typed copy for the first few months was lost/destroyed. There is a possibility that the original for these months exists at the PRO.

The casualties for the rest of the war do not seem to be listed individually but are totalled in the text.

On April 13th 1915 when the 2nd Battalion are in New Huts camp, between Vlamertinghe & Ypres, they are visited by Genl. Bulfin comdg. 28th Division. The diary says that 'the 84th Brigade this day returned to 28th Division, from which it had been temporarily detached since 22nd Feb.'

Sorry not to have been able to find your dates but obviously the War Diary existed for February 1915, but was lost or has not been filmed.

Kate

[CROONAERT]

there is a map in the East Yorkshire reht Hist 14-18. unfortunatly my scanner is on the blink. This map however shows you exactly where Z trench is. it was also called International trench, because the Germans held the middle part.

Cheers

lawry

Geordie.

I think this is the map that Lawry refers to....

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

...and this is the same area from a trenchmap 2 years later...

[Chris]

Geordie.

Not sure if the following tip will work in this case (Terry Denham may be able to tell you more). Have you tried writing to the CWGC and asking for initial burial map references for some of the men you listed above. It may help you pinpoint exactly where near the farm that they were buried initially. Myself and Steve Bramley did similair for the 1/5th Lincs lads killed at Gommecourt on 1st July 1916, as we wondered why they had 6 digit terrritorial numbers, rather than a 4 digit 1916 number. Luckily several of the men we looked at had initial grave references which placed them in 1916 no mans land, and helped us come to the conclusion that their bodies were not found until the Germans retired to the Hindenburg line, and were therefore most likely initially buried by The British in 1917, rather than by the Germans.

Chris

[Terry Denham]

CWGC does hold some of the original burial references and will answer limited questions on the subject.

However, this is not a general service they provide as it requires quite a bit of work on their part and it does not actually come within the scope of their daily work.

Asking for long lists of names to be checked will probably not be a good idea but one or two may get a positive response. Be prepared for the answer that the info no longer exists or for the answer to take some time.

Be warned that it is holiday season at Maidenhead like everywhere else and their meagre staff is currently depleted so enquiries may take longer.

Contact them on casualtyenq@cwgc.org

[Terry Denham]

Geordie

An email will do. Ask if they have a record of the original burial location or map reference where the bodies were found. List the men with name, rank, number, unit and current burial location. Keep the list to a max of three and see how you get on.

Then - Be patient as they have to fit your request around their daily work.

The battalion correction you mention will have been made already in the CWGC database and will appear on the website at the next update.

The information you see on the website is only a partial static copy of the main CWGC database taken on a specific day. It is not the real thing. The copy you can see was taken on 2 June 2003 and so would not show any corrections/changes made after that date.

However, anyone requesting a print-out from CWGC will get the latest data to that minute as such documents are run from the main database.

[Chris]

Geordie.

I hope the CWGC turns up some interesting info for you, it certainly did for me. I think you will find Hill 60 would be just off the map slightly to the right, and up a bit of where it says Dump in the top right corner of the second of Daves maps.

Chris

[CROONAERT]

Dave how fars that La Chapelle Farm off Hill 60

I take it that the 50 on your map is just before Hill 60

And how far is Hill 60 away from hill 62 what I take to be Sanctuary Wood

Regards Geordie Lad

Geordie.

This extract from the same map shows both Hill 60 and La Chapelle Farm.

Hill 62 is approx. 1mile NNE of Hill 60 and Sanctuary Wood was a large wood that spread almost to the Menin Road just beyond Hooge, from the Mt.Sorrel/Hill 62 area (the wood itself was approx.1mile long itself).

Dave.