Pte Thomas Sutherland, 7/Suffolk, killed 27th March 1918

[mithrandir1967]

My great uncle is commemorated on the Pozieres Memorial as having no known grave. He died at Albert on the 17th March 1918 and was in D Coy, 7/Suffolk. However my reserach indicates that he does have a grave but that it is as "A soldier of the Great War". The Pozieres Cemetery has only 2 graves of named soldiers from the Suffolk Regiment (and they are probably from 1916 or August 1918) but records the names of 83 soldiers without a known grave (including my great uncle). The regimental records show that the 7/Suffolk suffered 256 casualities in the engagement, so where are the graves of the other 173 casualities, who I assume were buried in marked graves? My reasoning is that the cemetery with the 173 graves of named 7/Suffolk soldiers might well contain the graves of unknown 7/Suffolk soldiers and hence might contain the grave of my great uncle.

[KevinBattle]

..... err, could you recheck your information?

There was only one death on 17th March 1918 in 7th Suffolk Regiment

Name: HART, ALBERT CHARLES. Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Suffolk Regiment. Unit Text: 7th Bn.

Age: 30. Date of Death: 17/03/1918. Service No: 24988

Additional information: Son of Mrs. C. Hart, of Fulbourne; husband of Maria Hart, of Station Rd., Fulbourne, Cambs.

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. C. 54. Cemetery: MERVILLE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION

and as you can see, he's got a named grave....

You've probably got a lot of Pals scratching their heads wondering what needs correcting in order to help!!

(I'd guess 27th March 1918, the day of the great German counter attack, but???)

EDIT: Not 27th March 1918 and none of the 80 7th Suffolk men on Pozieres Memorial are shown as being in D Company in CWGC Debt of Honour...................????

The Pozieres Memorial commemorates those Missing from the German Offensive, which didn't start until 21st March 1918, so 17th March that you give cannot be right!!

CWGC Information:-

The POZIERES MEMORIAL relates to the period of crisis in March and April 1918 when the Allied Fifth Army was driven back by overwhelming numbers across the former Somme battlefields, and the months that followed before the Advance to Victory, which began on 8 August 1918. The Memorial commemorates over 14,000 casualties of the United Kingdom and 300 of the South African Forces who have no known grave and who died on the Somme from 21 March to 7 August 1918. The Corps and Regiments most largely represented are The Rifle Brigade with over 600 names, The Durham Light Infantry with approximately 600 names, the Machine Gun Corps with over 500, The Manchester Regiment with approximately 500 and The Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery with over 400 names.

We can only help if you give us something to work on.

[mithrandir1967]

I am really sorry - complete schoolboy error on my part. It was of course on the 27th March 1918 at Albert. Thomas Arthur Lockwood SUTHERLAND's regimental number is recorded as 45570 on the roll of honour (aged 19 and son of Mrs Hannah Sutherland of Gravesend, Kent) but on the nominal roll taken on 27th March 1918 (from the regimental records) he is recorded as being in D Coy and his number as 43570 (although recorded as T. Sutherland). He is listed as wounded, so my point is if he was wounded and then died later the same day, would he not have had a marked grave, or if in the melee his identity was lost would it at least not been clear that he was from the Suffolks and been buried in a grave saying "unknown solider of the Suffolk Regiment"? So through a process of elimination might it not be possible to narrow down his grave to a small number of "unknown soldier" graves?

[mithrandir1967]

My great uncle, Pte(45570) Thomas Arthur Lockwood SUTHERLAND (son of Mrs Hannah Sutherland of Gravesend, Kent), iscommemorated on the Pozieres Memorial as having no known grave. He died, aged19, at Albert, on the 27th March 1918 and was in D Coy, 7/Suffolk. The nominal roll taken on 27th March 1918(from the regimental records) shows a T. Sutherland (43570) as being in D Coyand listed as wounded. If he was wounded and then died later the same day,would he not have had a marked grave, or if in the melee his identity was lostwould it at least not been clear that he was from the Suffolksand been buried in a grave saying "unknown solider of the Suffolk Regiment"? So through a process ofelimination might it not be possible to narrow down his grave to a small numberof "unknown soldier" graves? The Pozieres Cemeteryhas only 2 graves of named soldiers from the SuffolkRegiment (and they are probably from 1916 or August 1918) but records the namesof 83 soldiers without a known grave (including my great uncle). The regimentalrecords show that the 7/Suffolk suffered 256 causalitiesin the engagement, of course not all killed, so where are the graves of some ofthe other 173 causalities (or indeed the 83), whom I assume were buried in marked graves? Myreasoning is that a cemetery with the some of the graves of the 173 7/Suffolk soldiers might well contain the graves ofunknown 7/Suffolk soldiers and hence mightcontain the grave of my great uncle.

[KevinBattle]

Well, welcome back! Another day later and we'd be answering in a different year, let alone months later!

Firstly, there is a Family Tree on Ancestry, claiming him. Is that one you've been involved with?

The CWGC Additional Details show only his mother, Hannah Elizabeth, inferring that his father Robert George was already deceased but the Family Tree doesn't show him dying until 1926, so presumably they had split by 1918? (Occupation shown as "Mariner", girl in every port?

The Family Tree shows Thomas as born on 6th July 1898 and baptised on 2nd October, along with his twin sister Louisa. It seems to have been a prolific family, with the last child being born in 1915, presumably before the parents separated.

Thomas's Medal Index Card quite clearly shows his correct Number as 45570, either it was poorly written in the Roll Call or a mistake was made then. Both Soldiers Died in the Great War and the CWGC entries show his correct Number.

Medal Index Card:

Name: Thomas Alfred Sutherland. Regiment or Corps: Suffolk Regiment. Regimental Number: 45570. Entitled to British War and Victory medals (as expected due to his age, unlikely to have been in a Theatre of War earlier than 1916).

SDGW:

Name: Thomas Alfred Sutherland. Birth Place: Gravesend. Death Date: 27 Mar 1918

Death Location: France & Flanders. Enlistment Location: Gravesend. Rank: Private

Regiment: Suffolk Regiment. Battalion: 7th Battalion. Number: 45570

Type of Casualty: Killed in action. Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

Comments: Formerly Tr/9/5935, T.R

CWGC (I assume you already have this, but for completeness and for others who may try and help):-

Name: SUTHERLAND, THOMAS ALFRED. Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Suffolk Regiment. Unit Text: 7th Bn.

Age: 19. Date of Death: 27/03/1918. Service No: 45570

Additional information: Son of Mrs. H. E. Sutherland, of 17, Robert St., Gravesend, Kent.

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 25. Memorial: POZIERES MEMORIAL

Sorry, I haven't been able to trace any Service or Pension records for him....

As this was the first day of the great German advance, the dead would have been in territory captured by the Germans, and he may not have been buried immediately, therefore identification may not have been possible, even as to which Regiment, if "souvenirs" taken as the Germans passed by.

So many years after the events, I'm afraid it may simply not be possible to say with any accuracy just where he may be buried, and with what epitaph (assuming his body was found and exhumed at some later date).

It took many months for the Allies to regain the lost ground and in the subsequent fighting, even if he had been in a marked grave, the details were then lost during the shelling and advance over this war torn battleground.

[mithrandir1967]

Thank you. Thomas was the eldest son of a large and close family. He parents remained together until his father's death in 1926.

Your suggestion is compelling. However, if the nominal roll from the 27th has Thomas as wounded he must at that time been in British territory. If your suggestion is true then the position would have been overrun later in the day after he died and before he was buried. Is there anyway to find out where D Coy were deployed that day?

If he was buried by the Germans and then reinterrred later by the British, would that have been a Pozieres? Are there any CWGC records to show where bodies were exhumed and then reburied?

[KevinBattle]

Sorry, I just can't give you chapter and verse, of what happened so long ago.

Let's just take it one step at a time.

On 27th March 1918, the Germans attacked in overwhelming strength along a large part of the British front line, and by infiltrating rapidly were able to take many battalions in the flank and causing great disruption. Early on, many units were in disarray, falling back from one position to another, only to find themselves being outflanked, again and again. So, we have a fairly chaotic scene, with commanders not really knowing what is happening out of direct sight around them. All the while, they are under heavy artillery bombardment and the moment that lifts the infantry are swarming over them.

It would seem that the 7 Suffolks were able to regroup for a short respite, during which time the Roll Call was taken and Thomas was either with them in a wounded condition or had been seen as wounded by his mates and reported as such on the Roll Call.

From that point on, we have no more knowledge of what happened to him.

Either he wasn't actually with the Battalion or shortly thereafter went to an Aid Station. It seems he couldn't stay with the remnants of the Battalion when they next had a Roll Call.

Somewhere along the way, Thomas slipped from known memory. He may have been too badly wounded to survive even with medical assistance, still been able to fight but died without witness "facing the enemy" as the Suffolks fell back further. He was probably buried either near the First Aid post, or by captured troops or by the Germans.

All we can say now is that wherever he was buried, the location and his identity were subsequently lost.

Eighty other families of Suffolks who died that day could equally ask the same question, and of the umpteen thousands (who may have been properly buried and recorded initially) the fighting continued back and forth over the same ground, so that in time the locations and identities have been lost.

That's the reason for these Memorials, to give grieving relatives a focal point where at least their Names are remembered, rather than wondering if he's under this or that "Known Unto God" headstone.

Perhaps the best solution would simply to accept that one of the "KUG" graves is Great Uncle Thomas and remember him that way. You may possibly be right!!

(Just as an aside, many years ago, I went to a CWGC cemetery with a friend to pay his respects to a WW1 family casualty. While he did so, I just wandered off a respectful distance, just keeping him in eyeshot. When he finished, he came over to where I was standing, and completely unexpectedly, when we looked at the headstone, it had his surname. We took down the details and when he got home and checked, it was a member of his family, killed in WW2 but they had lost the details of! So, sometimes there is a greater force than we know at work. It may just do so for you.)

[sotonmate]

m1967

See this from the Long Long Trail at top left of this page:

http://www.1914-1918.net/12div.htm

and as you scroll down to early 1918 there is an account and a map for the end of March which will show 7 Suffolks in Albert with Germans all around them.

It is very likely that wherever he was taken with his wounds was also under attack at some time during the day and maybe the ground was captured by the advancing Germans, so he may have been lost at that point,hence his entry of missing dead on Pozieres Memorial.

Or,the Germans buried him at some time.In 2014 records of their burial activity will be published by the Intl Red Cross,Geneva,they are at the moment being transcribed from records which had been stored since WW1 and not known of until relatively recently. Not to say that you will find out for sure where he is buried,just that hopefully a lot of people are going to find where their ancestor was buried.

Sotonmate

[mithrandir1967]

Sotonmate

Thanks for this. The informtion about the German records is very interesting although of course I amrealistic about what might be recorded. However if by chance there were records of burials in Albert at that time, would British records exist (perhaps with CWGC) recording a subsequent exhumation and site of reinternment?

Mirhrandir

[kenf48]

you were advised to search Geoff's which sadly went offline in August but is now back (hooray) http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search1421.php

I was so chuffed with the news I had to search on something even though I think you've had the best advice from Kevin yesterday in your previous thread above.

So the power of Geoff shows:-

27th March 1918

72 deaths for 7th Bn Suffolk Regiment recorded on the CWGC Debt of Honour

6 interred at Bouzincourt

1 at Serre Road

1 at Doullens

1 at Aveluy Wood; the remainder (63) are all on the Pozieres Memorial and have no known grave

It is perhaps worth mentioning that some of the cemeteries were used by the V Corps Burial Officer after the Armistice.

Ken