Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 I am currently researching the taking of Stuff Redoubt by the 10th Cheshires on 9th October 1916 in the hope of one day finding out how/why my G. Grandfather won his MM. To gain some form of visual idea of the location I'd love to see a good map of Stuff Redoubt and the approach trenches likely to have been used by the 76th FA, RAMC who where in support. I have visited Thiepval twice, before ever knowing it was the location of my G. Grandfather's bravery. I intend on returning to visit the location of Stuff Redoubt for the first time as soon as possible. Hopefully someone will be able to help, many thanks. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Tiger Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Alan Hopefully this old thread from 2006 will help CLICK Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Hi Ice Tiger: Thanks for a quick reply. I hadn't seen that thread before; unfortunately it doesn't give details of the position of Stuff Redoubt or even better, a layout of the place. I know roughly where it is but would love to see a section of a good quality trench map of the area. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Tiger Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Hi Alan Stuff redoubt is about 600 yards on from Schwaben Redoubt and in German is known as "Feste Staufen" as shown on the map in the thread I linked to in my previous post. I am not on my home computer at the moment but if no one comes forward prior to this evening I can try to do a google maps overlay with Linesman for you later. Guy will tell you that the overlay will not be 100% accurate but if I keep it to a tight area it should be no more that a few feet out; if that helps. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2011 That shows how good my 3 years of learning German at school was, might have helped if the teacher wasn't deported mid-term... Thanks again for your generous offer to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 My book "The Great War Diaries of Brigadier General Alexander Johnston" (CO 10th Cheshires) will give you quite a bit of info. Doubtless you will have looked at the Cheshire Regt. history (Crittenden) I have quite a bit of material from War Diaries which I could send if you are interested. Regards Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Hi Edwin Your book is my main source at the moment, I haven't read anything else that comes close to describing the capture of Stuff Redoubt like it does. The 25th Division war diary by Kincaid-Smith comes in at a poor second with 2 paragraphs whilst all the other books I have at the moment tend to mention it in one sentence, more as a full stop of one battle before the next chapter. I haven't looked at the Cheshire Regt. History yet. As I'm focusing mainly on the battle at Stuff Redoubt I'd need to know if it offers something more than what is said in your book already. I have the 76th Field Ambulance war diary which gives me key facts behind the build up, conditions for the FA behind the line and more importantly lists my G. Grandfather as being nominated/awarded the MM. I have the Cheshire diary on my list to see during my next visit to Kew but as I'm not sure when that will be any help would be most welcome. Many thanks, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajackr Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Alan, Stuff Redoubt is at R 21 c. Map corrected 14.10.1916 R'ds Sajackr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Hi Sajackr That's just the sort of thing I was hoping for, very clear detail. I have sent you a pm. Many thanks, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Many thanks to Sajackr for the images he has sent me. I have cropped them both to highlight Stuff Redoubt. Looking at the map dated Aug 1916 Stuff Redoubt is shown as a heavily defended 'rhombus' shaped area. On the second map dated 14 Oct 1916, just 5 days after the attack it has lost it's coding and turned into a black line. Can any of the 'map readers' tell me from these images if the fortified trenches to the North-West, butting up to the old Redoubt, would be British trenches or German still. Thanks everyone for your help, I'll continue to search for information, photos, war dairies etc that will build up a clear picture of what happened there that day. Cheers, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 They are still shown in red, implying that they are enemy-held. I have the 8/border Regiment War Diary extract for the 21st when they launched an attack on Regina Trench from (the captured) Hessian Trench (the one starting at about 3 o'clock from the Stuff Redoubt on your map extract and going off to the right). This shows that although the Stuff Redoubt (or most of it) was in British hands by the 21st, it effectively was still part of the front line (the uppermost part was later named Cheshire Trench, as can be seen on January 1917 maps). Thus, any trenches to the immedaite north west would probably have been in the new "No Man's Land" and not definitively "owned" by either side. Best wishes. Andy. 21st Oct. 1916 Attack on REGINA TRENCH by the Battn. and 1 Coy. of 11th Battn., Cheshire Regt. The Battn. and 1 Coy., 11th Cheshires took over the line in Hessian Trench at 6 a.m., the relief being completed by 8 a.m.; the borders were on the right and the Cheshires on the left of the line. The objective in Regina Trench assigned to the Battn. was roughly 350 yards with the 13th Cheshires, 74th Brigade being on our right and responsible for the sunken road, and the 8th South Lancs. on our left. The attack was ordered in four waves, borders being in ½ Company columns, “A” Coy. and 11th Cheshires in column of platoons 30 paces advance. Our artillery barrage opened at 12.06 p.m. which was the signal to get out of the trench: the waves were not very good but there was no confusion, direction was well kept by the borders, this was cased by the communication trench on the right running obliquely across our front, a change of direction also had to be made. The whole advanced too quickly, sufficient attention was not paid to the barrage orders, officers were few, but watches could not have been properly used. The ground was not cut up by shell holes as much as was expected and was easy to advance over, the leading wave reached the objective before the barrage lifted and suffered some casualties in consequence, the wire was well cut and presented no obstacle. The barrage was excellent, a few shells were short, but I think this must be expected. The attack was sudden and swift and had there been a slight check to allow the barrage to lift the Battn. would have got over almost without a casualty. When the trench was reached on the left, the men got in so easily that they did not realise they had gained their objective. A gap was also left on the right owing to opposition from a large dugout on the right where a machine gun fired a few rounds. Some dugouts and emplacements showed up as plainly on the left of STUMP ROAD, and Germans were seen coming out of them. Within a minute of reaching Regina Trench some officers and about 80 men, of whom 40 were borders, left the trench and made straight across for them. Amongst these men were about 20 of the 13th Cheshires who had come across our front. Some went through the barrage and occupied a trench 600 yds. in front of the line; they were withdrawn after dark. Capt. Stewart realised what was happening and stopped a good many from going forward and got them to work at once in the trench. He found he was in touch with the 8th S. Lancs. on the left but the right was held up. He ordered a block to be made till he could collect more men as the line was thin and sent back a written report of the situation which was most useful as it arrived soon after a report came from Lt. Hibberd as to the situation on the right. He said the trench had not been cleared out but was full of borders and Cheshires. This turned out to be the bombers originally told off to clear the right and two details of Lewis Guns and about 30 men of the Cheshire Regt, who were unable to go on. Lt. Birnie was then sent up with the last remaining squad of Battn. Bombers at Battn. H.Q. to try and get in touch with Capt. Stewart by bombing up the Communication Trench. On arriving at the dugout he found that the one just beyond the block was ablaze and he could not get on that way, but under cover of the smoke caused by it he managed to get his squad and 10 others from the Communication Trench over, man by man, to Regina Trench to where Capt. Stewart was, only one man being hit on the way. He got to work at once in a very gallant manner, himself getting onto the parapet and sniping while his men worked up the trench. He accounted for at least 8 Germans killed, and within 20 minutes the remainder of about 60 surrendered. The trench was cleared and touch gained with the 13th Cheshires. Consolidation proceeded without opposition and several patrols were captured during the night. 3 machine guns were captured, 1 by the borders, 1 by the 11th Cheshires and 1 by the S. Lancs. 251 Germans were captured and 30 killed were counted. The Coy. of the 11th Cheshire Regt. and the officers attached from that Battn. rendered very useful assistance, as did the platoon of carriers who did excellent work carrying bombs and ammunition. A Coy. of the 11th Cheshires was ordered to reinforce the front line, their place in Hessian Trench being taken by 1 coy, 11th Cheshires. FIELD TRENCH was dug during the night by the R.E.’s and also the Communication Trench on the right was improved and made passable throughout. This trench was very heavily shelled very soon after the attack commenced, this being kept up intermittently for 24 hours until the Battn. was relieved. The front line was thinned out on the morning of the 22nd, the Coy. of the 11th Cheshires being sent back to their H.Q. and the 11th Cheshires from the front line taking their place. The bombers of the 11th Cheshire were kept in reserve and were not required. Casualties; Capt. Miller and Capt. Watson killed. Lt. Le May wounded, 18 other ranks killed, 111 wounded, 30 missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Thank you Andy, being red dawned on me as I pressed the post button... The account of the next phase is most welcomed, thank you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Hi Alan, • The 25th Division captured the Stuff Redoubt on the 9th October 1916, on the same day 117 Bde of the 39 Division were unsuccessful in attacking the North face of the Schwaben Redoubt. Colonel Johnston, 10th Cheshire Regiment, provides an account of the attack in the Regimental History. • The North face of the Schwaben Redoubt was captured on the 14th of October 1916 by 118 Bde of the 39 Division. • A problem trench to the north of both redoubts (the Schwaben and Stuff) was called Stuff Trench; this was captured on the 21 October 1916 by 116 Bde of the 39 Division, assisted by the 25th Division. The Germans were not letting these Redoubts go lightly and subjected them to several counter-attacks - a couple involving flammenwerfer. I have posted a picture of the 'end state' 21-23 Oct 1916; if I find a similar one of the Stuff Redoubt (pre 14 October 1916) I'll post it. I hope this is of some assistance. Aye, Tom McC [Picture is from the PRO and subject to the conditions of Crown Copyright] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 30 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Hi Tom, thank you for your information. I have the war diary you mention (Johnston) Edwin has produced an excellent book there, very useful. Thank you for adding the map and note taken as to its origin. I'm starting to build up a good picture, using the maps to see how the period went. Cheers, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Andy I put numerous references to Stuff Redoubt [Feste Staufen] in my Battleground Europe guide The Germans at Thiepval. There is, for example, an extract of an official German trench map on p 124, which shows not only precisely where it was and what its dimensions were, but also where it lies in relation to Stump Road and Grandcourt Road cemetery. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 31 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Hi Jack Thank you for your response. I haven't seen your book, yet. It's still in the post... Christmas and my birthday saw 8 books arrive covering the 3 brothers I'm tracking. It's a devil of a job picking the right books, a few just refer 'in passing' about what you're looking for, some just quote other books! This is the problem when researching just one day in the whole war. I'll look forward to reading your book, when it arrives, and I'll continue to track down as much source material as I can in the meantime. Many thanks, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 If, when you have looked at the guidebook, further questions arise, get back to me. I have a lot of information about the Thiepval area. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 31 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Jack, Thank you for your kind offer. I'm currently like a sponge, mopping up as much as I can. This request for maps has produced some brillient results. Thank you everyone. I have many other questions to ask but to keep on topic they are under my G Grandfather's thread: Pte 39227 Thomas WHISTON MM 76th Field Ambulance, RAMC. After my first visit to Thiepval, before I know it was where my G Grandfather won his medal, the area has had a great pull for me. I used it for my inspiration to design and build the one and only show garden, 'Paradox', I have produced in 2010. The link will not work after January 30th 2012 as I'm closing that website down. I aim to move the Paradox section to it's own site where I'll add the details I have learnt about my G Grandfather. Cheers, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Tiger Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 That's some garden there Alan; certainly deserves the top award. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 2 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2012 If, when you have looked at the guidebook, further questions arise, get back to me. I have a lot of information about the Thiepval area. Jack I do hope I get the book before Thursday morning, I'm on the 06:30 sailing to make a visit in the afternoon/Friday morning. I might have to thumb through a copy at the Memorial bookshop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 2 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2012 That's some garden there Alan; certainly deserves the top award. Andy Thank you Andy, you're very kind. I was very pleased with the Memorial Wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Graham Posted 11 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2012 Thiepval Memorial looking across from Stump Road, Stuff Redoubt being in the forground. Friday 6th January 2012 My car still has a ton of Somme mud under it... Another request for help on this subject... In the War Diary of the 76th Field Ambulance two locations are mentioned and appear to be points 'on route' to Stuff Redoubt from their base in Aueluy. I assume the FA stretcher bearer route would move via these points. Quote: "Immediately proceeded to front line going to 88 post outside OVILLIERS ordering all stretcher bearers there..... arrive at 12 am at our A.D.S. at Danube Trench and report to O.C. these taking all available stretchers and extra blankets and waterproof sheets - . Walked across to A.D.S. At Danube Trench receiving fair dose of shrapnel on the way." Can anyone pinpoint the two locations for me: 88 post outside Ovilliers and Danube Trench (or even better the ADS as located on the 9/10/16) Many thanks.Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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