Light Patrol Cars

[JackM]

My first post I think, after being an occasional watcher for some time.

My interest is in military history generally but at least on this forum, I am specifically interested in the 1917/18 use of the Model T Ford as a light patrol car in Egypt and Palestine.

I am creating one of these vehicles, mainly from photos gleaned from the Australian War Memorial and to a lesser extent from the Imperial War Museum. A picture of progress to date is attached - I reckon I've got about another 3 months of work, before the vehicle is suitably clothed and drivable.

My question is in regard to the colour. All the photos I've seen to date are B&W, so I'm still uncertain of the paint colour used in the desert. I assume that, unlike the Western Front, where I believe vehicles were painted the usual blend of green, that the desert equivalent would have been a brown/yellow tinge.

I've seen a watercolour representation of a 16th Irish Div Model T in that yellow/brown combination, but I've no idea of its authenticity.

Anyone know ? Or does anyone have access to unusual/unpublished photos of these vehicles, which might provide missing clues ?

In that regard and having just read a thread here on Dunsterforce, I've seen a very good side view picture of a group of Dunsterforce vehicles drawn up on a desert road, which provided much detail (including the mysterious mechanism of the tailgate locks) and some of the insignia/numbering of these vehicles.

I've also read the E. James account of life in the 1st Australian Light Car Patrol around Palestine, which is held in the AWM. It's a good tale of their adventures but regrettably, photoless.

[tipperary]

Hi Jack unable to answer any of your questions you have some nice work done there.john

[centurion]

Photos suggest that they were in a lighter colour than mens. uniforms. However I believe that light grey was sometimes used.

[Verrico2009]

That looks as though this photo of the ambulance variety from the USAF museum might be a match. The front end appears rather lighter and more sand-like than the back.

[liliasodell]

Afraid I can help with your specific enquiries but I thought you might be interested in the following snippet. My grandfather, after becoming unfit for frontline service just before the battle for Jerusalem (he was Warwickshire Yeomanry), was transferred to the RASC in Alexandria. One of his jobs while there was to put the Fords together - apparently they arrived in 'kit' form. Once constructed, they used to test 'road worthiness' by taking them out into the dunes, picking a suitably shaped one, driving hell for leather up the slope so they took off at the top and flew for some distance, landing at the bottom. If the vehicle was still intact and working - it was ready for use.

I don't think I have any photos of the Fords - there probably were some once, but Grandma threw most of them out, and I only managed to rescue a few (still in mourning about this nearly 30 years later). I'll check when I get a chance in the New Year.

Good luck!

Eljo.

My first post I think, after being an occasional watcher for some time.

My interest is in military history generally but at least on this forum, I am specifically interested in the 1917/18 use of the Model T Ford as a light patrol car in Egypt and Palestine.

I am creating one of these vehicles, mainly from photos gleaned from the Australian War Memorial and to a lesser extent from the Imperial War Museum. A picture of progress to date is attached - I reckon I've got about another 3 months of work, before the vehicle is suitably clothed and drivable.

My question is in regard to the colour. All the photos I've seen to date are B&W, so I'm still uncertain of the paint colour used in the desert. I assume that, unlike the Western Front, where I believe vehicles were painted the usual blend of green, that the desert equivalent would have been a brown/yellow tinge.

I've seen a watercolour representation of a 16th Irish Div Model T in that yellow/brown combination, but I've no idea of its authenticity.

Anyone know ? Or does anyone have access to unusual/unpublished photos of these vehicles, which might provide missing clues ?

In that regard and having just read a thread here on Dunsterforce, I've seen a very good side view picture of a group of Dunsterforce vehicles drawn up on a desert road, which provided much detail (including the mysterious mechanism of the tailgate locks) and some of the insignia/numbering of these vehicles.

I've also read the E. James account of life in the 1st Australian Light Car Patrol around Palestine, which is held in the AWM. It's a good tale of their adventures but regrettably, photoless.

[JackM]

Thanks for the replies. I guess whatever colour I eventually select, will be right, given that few will be able to 'nay say' it.

Eljo - your tale about testing the Model Ts and the way they came in pack form to Egypt, makes sense to me.

All the photos I've seen to date of the 1917 Ts show a distinct body uniformity. In short, there must have been a War Office design for these vehicles which standardised the bodies. I've asked the IWM for help in that regard, but to no avail.

These bodies were different to the contemporary US and Canadian produced styles, in that they had only one opening door (on the left side) and were RH drive. That makes it fairly reasonable to assume that these vehicles were produced in England and shipped out to the Middle East, in an early type of kit form. Given the fact that modern day suppliers of reproduction parts only cater for the US type body (ie with a single RH door and LH drive), it means a complete fabrication of the driving compartment outer skin. It will however, be a very different type of vehicle to the 'normal' Model T.

[centurion]

Thanks for the replies. I guess whatever colour I eventually select, will be right, given that few will be able to 'nay say' it.

Eljo - your tale about testing the Model Ts and the way they came in pack form to Egypt, makes sense to me.

All the photos I've seen to date of the 1917 Ts show a distinct body uniformity. In short, there must have been a War Office design for these vehicles which standardised the bodies. I've asked the IWM for help in that regard, but to no avail.

These bodies were different to the contemporary US and Canadian produced styles, in that they had only one opening door (on the left side) and were RH drive. That makes it fairly reasonable to assume that these vehicles were produced in England and shipped out to the Middle East, in an early type of kit form. Given the fact that modern day suppliers of reproduction parts only cater for the US type body (ie with a single RH door and LH drive), it means a complete fabrication of the driving compartment outer skin. It will however, be a very different type of vehicle to the 'normal' Model T.

Just to add to your problems - the Model T desert patrol cars built in Britain came in two patterns, the design changing sometime in 1916. The early pattern had an angular top to the bonnet and straight front wings in the later version both were rounded.

[JackM]

Thanks for that, Centurion.

I think those changes coincided with the Ford (US) body alterations which as you say included a move from the brass radiator to what they called a black radiator and the changes to the mudguards/fenders. It happened at the end of the 1916 production run.

I have seen pics of the 1915/16 vehicles - they generally mounted a Vickers facing rearwards. In his oral history, Capt E.H. James recounts that the 1st Aust Light Car Patrol was initially issued with the 1916 models (brass radiators), but was later required to hand in these vehicles which were replaced by the (black radiator) 1917 models.

The 1917 model among other things, altered the armament from the Vickers to a Lewis, mounted (and I haven't yet worked out how the mounting was fabricated) near the front LH side of the cowling.

The photo below shows a 1917 model and is the type of vehicle I'm aiming to produce. Interestingly it is the only one of several I have seen, which sports the Australian coat of arms topped by a palm tree, on the radiator.

[centurion]

I have seen pics of the 1915/16 vehicles - they generally mounted a Vickers facing rearwards.

Not always

[domsim]

Hi Jack

A very nice job there! Colour wise it might be worth seeing if you can look at any of Frank Hurley's photographs from Palestine-he took Paget colour plates and it may he photographed some of the car patrols or their vehicles that ended up in palestine/Syria 1917/1918.

Example here:

AWM paget plate 1 sqn AFC

Some of Albert Kahn's photographers also worked in the area:

Albert Kahn-Aqaba

All the best

Dominic

[JackM]

Centurion - that's why I said generally. I was thinking about the vehicle photo below, at the time. Though I've also seen the Lewis rear mounted as well - on the earlier brass radiator Ts. The second photo shows it well.

Dominic - thanks for the pointer towards Frank Hurley - I'm halfway through reviewing his photos from the AWM database and have found two new pics with Model Ts in them, that I hadn't seen before. Nothing in colour yet, though.

Jack

[rmcguirk]

Thanks for the replies. I guess whatever colour I eventually select, will be right, given that few will be able to 'nay say' it.

Eljo - your tale about testing the Model Ts and the way they came in pack form to Egypt, makes sense to me.

All the photos I've seen to date of the 1917 Ts show a distinct body uniformity. In short, there must have been a War Office design for these vehicles which standardised the bodies. I've asked the IWM for help in that regard, but to no avail.

These bodies were different to the contemporary US and Canadian produced styles, in that they had only one opening door (on the left side) and were RH drive. That makes it fairly reasonable to assume that these vehicles were produced in England and shipped out to the Middle East, in an early type of kit form. Given the fact that modern day suppliers of reproduction parts only cater for the US type body (ie with a single RH door and LH drive), it means a complete fabrication of the driving compartment outer skin. It will however, be a very different type of vehicle to the 'normal' Model T.

Jack,

I've been following this thread with interest for a few days while travelling. That's a great project you've undertaken. I've been working on the history of the Light Car Patrols for a couple of years and have collected quite a few photos for the publication, but of course they're all B&W, and I can't help you directly with the question of colour. I did check the History of the Transport Services of the EEF, which I had thought, with its seemingly infinite detail on the Motor Transport used, might be of help. Alas, no mention of colour.

I suspect that standardising colour was not an issue when the patrols were initially set up in spring 1916. Those original 6 patrols were put together in a great hurry, the Fords basically being commandeered from army units in Cairo and along theSuez Canal and sent to the W Desert in a matter of a few weeks.Standardisation, including that of colour, would have been more likely at theend of 1916/early 1917 when General Dobell asked for LCPs for the campaign in Sinai and Palestine; and for the original 6 patrols from summer 1917, when they were brought into the Machine Gun Corps (Motors). This is guesswork, however. For a more definite answer you might try looking for war-artist paintings and colour illustrations in contemporary magazines. For example, I have a small pre-War collection of Le Petit Journal, with colour illustrations on front and back covers. Some of these pictures are about the Turco-Italian War in Libya in1911-12, and the Italian cars are clearly coloured. That war was a very small affair relative to what came in 1914, so there must be something similar illustrating Model T Fords in war service.

Good luck with your project,

Russell

[JackM]

Thanks, Russell.

My only clue to the colour of these machines is the water colour shown below and even that is suspect, given that I'm advised the 16th Irish Div (the shamrock was their emblem, I believe) served only in France and Flanders, during WW1. Curiously, this picture shows a combination of the 1916 type vehicle (with the flat front mudguards, as Centurion mentioned) and the later 1917 model with the black radiator.

Anyway, as you say, I am sure the colour would have varied and no doubt the original paint suffered some sun degradation as time went by.

It is an interesting project - I've just finished pressing in the wooden (hickory) spokes on all four wheels - and as far as I'm concerned, it's an area of WW1 history with which I was previously unfamiliar.

Jack