WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Vehicle mounted Anti-Aircraft Gun in action with full crew, including Range Finder and Spotter.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Italian vehicle mounted Anti-aircraft Guns in action.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The 1919 published book described this vehicle as " A Motor Drawn Cannon with Armour used to fight Zeppelins and Aeroplanes ".

[centurion]

German pre 1914 A balloon gun.

[Rockdoc]

Vehicle mounted Anti-Aircraft Gun in action with full crew, including Range Finder and Spotter.

I don't know whether there is anything on the photo to give a clue to the site but it isn't necessarily an Australian unit, even though they're wearing slouched hats. The gun is a 13-pdr 6-cwt on the Mark 1 high-angle mount, introduced in early 1915 and moved to lesser theatres from France as supplies of the 13-pdr 9-cwt became available. 24th and 32nd AA Sections were operational with this type of gun in Salonika in 1916, when this type of hat was issued to troops as sun-hats were unavailable in sufficient quantity. There's an IWM illustrations showing one of them on the LLT section on AA units.

Keith

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I don't know whether there is anything on the photo to give a clue to the site but it isn't necessarily an Australian unit, even though they're wearing slouched hats. The gun is a 13-pdr 6-cwt on the Mark 1 high-angle mount, introduced in early 1915 and moved to lesser theatres from France as supplies of the 13-pdr 9-cwt became available. 24th and 32nd AA Sections were operational with this type of gun in Salonika in 1916, when this type of hat was issued to troops as sun-hats were unavailable in sufficient quantity. There's an IWM illustrations showing one of them on the LLT section on AA units.

Keith

Keith,

It is interesting to note that British troops wore such hats, looking at the photograph and based on the slouch hats, it could be assumed they were Australians.

I had not seen the photograph before, and it comes from a book I recently purchased. The book is dated 1919.

Thanks for the info.

Leo

[Rockdoc]

I have no idea about Australian AA units or which types of gun they used but those on the Western front, for example, would be very unlikely to have used the 6-cwt gun on this mount much after the Autumn of 1915 - assuming they received similar priority as their British counterparts. The 6-cwt on the Mark 2 mount was a vast improvement (higher elevation and the loss of the upper spring-case) and the 9-cwt, a much superior gun, was arriving in numbers by then. It's impossible to be certain but the ridge-line in the background does look a lot like the area to the SW of Lake Doiran where these guns were employed. We visited an AA position near what was then known as Ardzan last year with the Salonika Campaign Society trip and the gentle rise of the slope gave a crest much like this.

Keith - guessing like mad!!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I have no idea about Australian AA units or which types of gun they used but those on the Western front, for example, would be very unlikely to have used the 6-cwt gun on this mount much after the Autumn of 1915 - assuming they received similar priority as their British counterparts. The 6-cwt on the Mark 2 mount was a vast improvement (higher elevation and the loss of the upper spring-case) and the 9-cwt, a much superior gun, was arriving in numbers by then. It's impossible to be certain but the ridge-line in the background does look a lot like the area to the SW of Lake Doiran where these guns were employed. We visited an AA position near what was then known as Ardzan last year with the Salonika Campaign Society trip and the gentle rise of the slope gave a crest much like this.

Keith - guessing like mad!!

Unfortunately, the 1919 caption does not give a location, and you may be correct with Salonika.

The picture is packed with details, the shell being loaded, the vehicle's rear stone weights, the uniforms and hats, the Rangefinder and the Spotter's equipment.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Motorcyle Troops - Note the OHMS on the mudguard ( On His Majesty's Service )

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Motorcycle Dispatch Rider ?

LF

[Rockdoc]

The picture is packed with details, the shell being loaded, the vehicle's rear stone weights, the uniforms and hats, the Rangefinder and the Spotter's equipment.

They're not stone weights but wooden blocks and planks. I think you can see a handle on the largest piece on the RHS of the lorry. The brakes on these things would have been appallingly bad by modern standards and only on the back wheels in all likelihood. Scotches were placed against all four wheels but if the platform bounced every time the gun fired they'd move. In fact, the task of the No 11 (one of the two ASC men on a gun's detachment) was to make sure the scotches were kept tight during an action. To minimise movement of this kind, there were four jacks under the platform. The front set are usually just behind the cab and don't appear to have been set but may be the angled 'arm'. The rear jacks on this lorry are boards that move horizontally in guides and whose outer ends are supported on a large wooden block that is grooved to take the end of the board. There's no facility to make up any difference in height so the crew has packed the underside of the large block with sections of wood.

You can see a similar arrangement in this image, sent to me by Martin and Kate Wills, of 98th AAS's 'A' Gun on the Seres Road near Salonika in 1918, In this case, the crew has used tapering blocks to support the boards at front and rear. It's exactly the same type of gun but the arrangement of the rear jack is different so it may not be the same type of lorry.

This is a clickable link to a large image on Photobucket.

The chap on the platform with binoculars will be the No 1 (serjeant). My Grandfather's training notes about being "in action" are below. This detachment are doing things slightly differently:

At the order "Action" the numbers will take up their positions & work as follows:-

1 on the ground in a convenient position to command and supervise his Detachment & where he can see the signals of the Battery Commander. He orders "Go On" (commence firing) & "Stop". He passes all orders & acknowledges same by saluting. He is responsible that his layers are on the target ordered & not on some other aeroplane.

2 places himself on the right of the gun at the fuze dial. He adjusts the vertical scale "Up" & "Down". He should occasionally glance at the order board to check his fuze.

3 places himself on the left of the gun at the elevating wheel. He lays for elevation (usually by means of the telescope) & reports "On Target".

4 on the right of the gun, adjusts the lateral deflection as ordered. He should be able to set deflections blindly (e.g. one turn clockwise equals on degree right, etc). He should occasionally glance at the order board to check his deflections. He should stand well clear to avoid crowding the other numbers

5 is on the left of the gun at the traversing wheel. He lays for line (usually over open sights). If he uses the telescope he must keep his eye away from the eyepiece to avoid shock of recoil. On first picking up a target he will, when using open sights, order 3 to elevate or depress in order to bring the target into the field of view of No 3's telescope.

6 on the right of the gun, opens and closes the breech. He will keep clear of the recoil & must not keep the breech in the most fully open the position when the gun is being loaded but should allow the catch retaining breech mechanism open in the hole bored for it on the right side of the carrier; otherwise the extractor will not allow the new cartridge to go home.

7 places himself on the left of the gun in rear of 5. He loads and fires. When loading he will push the round home with his closed fist until it is engaged with the catch, retaining, cartridge. After gun fire has been ordered he will fire as soon as loaded & continuing loading & firing until "Stop" is ordered. He will fire by pushing the lever forward. He must be careful to keep clear of recoil. He receives ammunition from 8 & at a change of fuze will call "Fuze In" loud enough for the No 2 to hear.

8 supplies ammunition to 7 back of the hand up and fuze to the right. Ammunition may, however, be thrown up to 7 – palm of the hand upwards & fuze to the right. On a change of fuze he will give back the round in his hand to 9 or 10 receiving a correctly fuzed round in its place.

9 or 10 place themselves at the most convenient box for the supply of ammunition, changing their position as required. They set and alter fuzes, handing to 8 rounds set at the fuze shown on the order board.

11 attends to the tightening of the jacks and wheel scotches in action & will assist the wagon drivers in the supply of ammunition from the wagon when necessary.

Keith

[centurion]

The 1919 published book described this vehicle as " A Motor Drawn Cannon with Armour used to fight Zeppelins and Aeroplanes ".

Its a 1911 Daimler balloon gun. Only one built

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Its a 1911 Daimler balloon gun. Only one built

Many thanks for that very interesting information. The photograph I posted, came from an American Book published immediately after WW1 in 1919 - " History's Greatest War - A Pictorial Narrative ".

[centurion]

Many thanks for that very interesting information. The photograph I posted, came from an American Book published immediately after WW1 in 1919 - " History's Greatest War - A Pictorial Narrative ".

The vehicle appears in a number of books, usually erroneously titled. The photo you posted shows it in its final form - fully armoured- and closed down. The one I posted shows it with the top of the cab folded down. It actually started life as an open vehicle with only a simple gun shield and the armour was added later. Germany built a number of lorry based balloon guns at this time. AFAIK none got past the prototype stage and none saw action in WW1

[centurion]

Here is the photo to go with the armoured 3 wheeler (motor cycle combo) shown in one of the first cards in this thread.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Centurion,

Excellent research, I wondered if anyone would ever come up with that photograph.

I knew the cigarette cards were based on actual photographs, and there was so much doubt that the armoured 3 wheeleer existed ( card No.3 post #1 ).

Do you know anything about when or where the photograph was taken, are there some French officers in the photo ?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Photo of members of the 115th Anti-Aircraft Section, Royal Artillery, with a mounted camouflaged AA Gun on an American Peerless truck.

[Rockdoc]

This is a bit of an oddity. I think it's posed - the men are too relaxed - and there is what appears to be an information card or something similar leaning against the base of the mount. 115th AAS was raised in mid-1917 and went to France so I would have expected a detachment to be wearing helmets, not caps, when they were in action.

The whole thing shows how lessons have been learned from the earlier versions. The stabilising beams are now fitted with a screw-jack with a load-spreading foot so packing isn't required under the large, wooden pads. The gun is the 13-pdr 9-cwt - the sleeved-down 18-pdr - which is easily recognised by the barrel being considerably longer than the recuperator.The breech dimensions were retained so the muzzle velocity of the 13-pdr shell was significantly increased, something that was much needed to reduce the flight time to the target. With a 6-cwt gun the shell could take over 30s to be where a plane was predicted to be and even with the relatively slow speeds of WW1 aircraft there was a lot a pilot could do in that sort of time.

The oddly-shaped object by the wheel is a detachable mudguard and its height shows how much the platform could roll during travel - the centre-of-gravity would have been very high indeed thanks to the gun, which weighed several tons. The platform is lower on a gun-lorry than for other types of coach-building because the base of the mount is bolted directly to the chassis members, meaning the top of the rear wheels sit in slots. When travelling this is bolted over the hole. With earlier versions, the men had to step around the hole as they worked but later ones had a much shallower cover that replaced the mudguard and the lorry at the IWM Duxford has these in place. How much they were used in practice I have no idea because they wee about two inches high and could have been more of a tripping hazard than leaving the slot open, I would have thought.

It's possible this was taken in England before they embarked for France or in the rear areas (they were under the LoC for control) after they arrived. Perhaps someone will recognise the plaque on the wall as British or French. My gut feeling is that this is a personal photo record of some of the men of this detachment, perhaps taken by a local photographer rather than an official one.

Keith

Edited 4 March , 2012 by Rockdoc

[centurion]

The siting is also odd with nearly 50% of the gun's sky blocked by the proximity of the building

[Lancashire Fusilier]

It certainly looks like a staged photograph, the vehicle looks parked in England, possibly in London ? nevertheless it provides excellent details, particularly of the American Peerless truck, and the camouflage paint scheme.

There could be military vehicles in front, and behind, so it may be part of a convoy making ready to move off, and this being a good photo opportunity before they depart.

[Rockdoc]

Men for AA Sections all trained at Shoeburyness by 1917 but at least some of the earlier Sections went up to London, picked up their equipment at Woolwich and accompanied it to the docks, although the ASC men did not always travel and were replaced on arrival. How it worked for France and Flanders I have no idea but for Egypt, Salonika and Gallipoli the equipment was accompanied by a small company - an officer and three or four OR - while the remainder travelled separately, arriving some time before the others. From this I assume the equipment went by cargo boat and the majority on a troopship.

Without access to a Diary I can't say when this might have been taken but I think we can make a stab. 99th AAS, my Grandfather's unit, travelled to Salonika in March 1917. The first orbat reference to 115th AAS is in early July 1917 so I'd say this is likely to be not much later than mid-June 1917 and more likely to be in Britain than abroad because, I'd assume, once in France they'd be put to use as soon as possible after arrival, with little or no time to lark about. They have been issued with ammunition, one of the last things to happen when a Section mobilised, so I wonder whether this was taken en route to or near the docks? You'd think that the people at Woolwich wouldn't encourage light-heartedness with live ammunition and there would be enough eyes to make sure any misbehaviour got back. There are no officers present and the whole atmosphere is far too sloppy for it to be an official image. The dock area would be a happy hunting ground for opportunistic photographers and offering their services to men about to go overseas would be second nature. Photographers sometimes turned up in what you'd think would be secure areas, too. I have a couple of photos of my Grandfather taken just before the War on Salisbury Plain that must have been taken in and around the camps. In one he and a number of other men are using the near-derelict Newfoundland Farm as washing facilities and in the other he's supervising a group of men building, as he writes on the back, targets to represent cavalrymen for target practice.

Keith

[centurion]

If the vehicle was to be shipped as cargo would the locker/magazine contain ammunition?

[Rockdoc]

Potentially, yes. I have no idea how common it was to travel with ammunition but the Diary of 24th AA Section's No 2 Gun records firing at two enemy planes from the deck of the SS Packling at Imbros harbour after it had been taken from Gallipoli. It fired 10 rounds on 20th December, only a few hours after arriving, and 4 more on Christmas Day, 1915. Whether they had the rounds on the lorry or in crates that had been taken off the beach with it the Diary doesn't say. As the ship was evacuating men and equipment the rounds must have come on-board with the gun because I can't see them being a fortuitous piece of cargo. They must also have been kept close by. There wouldn't have been time to send for a box of shells from the hold.

Keith

[viking_raid]

Splendid collection of cards LF. Keep them coming, enjoying these immensely.

cheers

VR

Will's WW1 Military Motors - Card No.12 - British Motor Raft.

" The Motor Raft, or Flying Bridge is used for conveying motor cars, &c, across a river. The raft, on which the car is securely fixed, is attached to a long bouoyed cable - ".

LF

[RobL]

Many thanks for the photograph of the gas helmet'd dispatch rider, where did you find it? I've seen it as a drawing on the front of a magazine, it was taken in Salonika