WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Dave1418]

Just had a good look at the photos in #1987 and #1989 they appear to be the same train and most of the crew just in slightly different locations

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Just had a good look at the photos in #1987 and #1989 they appear to be the same train and most of the crew just in slightly different locations

Dave,

Agree, both photos are of ' Crewe Tractor ' No.39, taken at different times, and on different parts of the track.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

As was the case with many of the early aviators, Claude Grahame-White was trained as an engineer working on motor cars before he became interested in flying, and for a time, he made is own motor cars one of which, was the Grahame-White

' Cyclecar '. I can see no records of his motor cars having been successful, or their being produced in any great number.

Attached is a photo of a Grahame-White ' Cyclecar ', and also an undated photo of Claude Grahame-White in his motor car factory, which may have been located at his Hendon Aerodrome.

LF

These images is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Claude Grahame-White photographed in his motor car factory, which may have been located at Hendon Aerodrome. The chassis for his cars in the photograph ( see enlarged photo ) look to be Ford Model T chassis, coincidentally, the same chassis as that used on the ' Crewe Tractor '.

LF

These images is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

In 1900 Claude met the wealthy land-owner George Wilder and his wife. They paid Claude to buy new cars on their behalf, and teach them how to drive. For three years Claude was the agent for their 20,000 acre estate, Stanstead Park. Following nine months travelling in South Africa he returned to London to set up his own motor car dealership at No.1 Albemarle Street, importing cars from France.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In 1900 Claude met the wealthy land-owner George Wilder and his wife. They paid Claude to buy new cars on their behalf, and teach them how to drive. For three years Claude was the agent for their 20,000 acre estate, Stanstead Park. Following nine months travelling in South Africa he returned to London to set up his own motor car dealership at No.1 Albemarle Street, importing cars from France.

Johnboy,

Thanks for the info, Claude Grahame-White was obviously a very interesting and well travelled man.

Regards,

LF

[johnboy]

The company ceased aircraft manufacturing operations in 1920.

In the same year the company was renamed Grahame-White Company Ltd. and manufactured cyclecars until 1924. From 1920 onwards a very basic two-seat 3.3 hp type with air-cooled single-cylinder engine of 348 cc capacity was offered. It had a two-speed transmission with final chain drive. The car had no conventional suspension, relying on flex in the wood frame and seat cushions.^[1] In 1921 a 7 hp type with a Coventry-Victor twin-cylinder engine (capacity: 689 cc) and friction drive was added for one year only followed in 1924 by a four-cylinder 10 hp type with a Dorman engine of 1,094 cc, but very few were made.^[1] The final Angus-Sanderson cars were also made in the factory.^[1]

Grahame-White ceased its operations completely in 1924.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

During WW1 Claude Grahame-White served as a Flight Commander with the R.N.A.S. ( Royal Naval Air Service ), and his brother Montague also served with the Navy as a Lieutenant Commander, which probably accounts for Hendon Aerodrome being leased to the Admiralty during WW1, rather than to the R.F.C.

Attached, is a WW1 photo of Claude Grahame-White in R.N.A.S. uniform.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Claude's brother Montague Grahame-White was also trained as a motor car engineer, initially with Daimler, he was also an avid racing car driver.

In the attached photo, Montague is seen at the wheel of a superb early Wolseley 4 cylinder rear wheel chain-drive racing car.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

German Prisoners of War were used extensively throughout the Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport Depot's different workshops at Rouen, here we see German P.O.W.s working in the motor radiator repair shop, repairing two ' Packard ' lorry radiators, one of which looks to have bullet hole damage.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[David Filsell]

Thanks. Some years ago in preparation to make a model I did some read earth on the Crewe Tractor and located copies of all but one of the pictures you have shown. Although I can no longer give the source of the information, it seems like many - like most if not all tools 'designed' to do two jobs - they were unsatisfactory for either road or rail use. Not least, and probably because of the vehicle' slight weight, they offered poor traction on rails which limited their pulling ability. Much more successful, and proven, were the Simplex engines which came in from memory three version, the armoured looking like a little tank. So Lancs I now wait with baited breathe for some Simplexes from your apparently unending file of goodies!

[GRANVILLE]

I'm sure there is some film on YouTube taken from on a wagon pulled by one of these Crewe Tractors as it trundles on it's way, so I don't think they ought to be completely written off.

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I'm sure there is some film on YouTube taken from on a wagon pulled by one of these Crewe Tractors as it trundles on it's way, so I don't think they ought to be completely written off.

David

David,

The ' Crewe Tractors ' were probably used effectively through until the end of WW1, mainly for hauling heavy shells, with the photograph in post # 1990 of a ' Crewe Tractor ' hauling shells having been taken on the Western Front in March 1918.

From the attached photograph, we can see that a considerable number of heavy shells could be carried on each light rail cart.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks. Some years ago in preparation to make a model I did some read earth on the Crewe Tractor and located copies of all but one of the pictures you have shown. Although I can no longer give the source of the information, it seems like many - like most if not all tools 'designed' to do two jobs - they were unsatisfactory for either road or rail use. Not least, and probably because of the vehicle' slight weight, they offered poor traction on rails which limited their pulling ability. Much more successful, and proven, were the Simplex engines which came in from memory three version, the armoured looking like a little tank. So Lancs I now wait with baited breathe for some Simplexes from your apparently unending file of goodies!

David,

The ' Crewe Tractors ' which were originally designed to move heavy munitions, seemed to have done their job adequately through to the end of WW1.

As you requested, here are some photographs of the ' Simplex ' small light rail locomotives. ' Simplex ' being the Trade Name for the small light rail locomotives powered by both 20 hp and 40 hp petrol engines manufactured by the Motor Rail and Tram Car Co. Ltd., of Bedford, England during WW1 for the British War Department Light Railways, and the Ministry of Munitions, for use on the Western Front, and also by the military on the Home Front.

Also known as the ' Trench Tractor ' or the ' Tin Turtle ' ( due to their shape when ' Protected ' or fully ' Armoured ' ), the Simplex locomotives were used on the light railway networks operated by the Royal Engineers Railway Operating Company which served the forward areas supplying much needed munitions, equipment, supplies and sometimes men to the trenches, and were also used to evacuate wounded men from the trenches.

These ' Simplex ' locomotives, were powered by the smaller 20 hp Dorman petrol engines and also the larger 40 hp Dorman 4JO petrol engines coupled with a two speed Dixon-Abbot gearbox. Their petrol engines allowing them to be used in front line areas where steam locomotives producing smoke, could not be used, as they would have been far too conspicuous to the enemy and therefore vulnerable to enemy fire.

The ' Simplex ' light rail locomotive came in three variations, the ' Open ' type made with little or no extra bodywork, which was often the smaller 20 hp version, the ' Protected ' type with a metal roof, plus front, rear and side panels, and the ' Armoured ' type with fully armoured bodywork which completely enclosed the driver and the locomotive and provided reasonable protection against small arms fire and shrapnel.

The ' Protected ' type was the most prolific ' Simplex ' locomotive built with several hundreds being manufactured. The fully ' Armoured ' type was far fewer in number, with less that 30 being manufactured.

As well as being used by the British Royal Engineers Railway Operating Company, ' Simplex ' locomotives were also used on light railway lines operated by the Australian Army.

Following WW1, many of the ex-WD ' Simplex ' locomotives were returned to Britain to be used on industrial light railway lines, and also in quarries. Some of the original WW1 ex-WD ' Simplex ' locomotives have been restored and are still running today, others are located in Museums including one at Duxford.

Compiled from various sources.

The first photograph, shows an ' Open ' Simplex locomotive literally stopped in its tracks by a German shell landing a direct hit on the light rail line.

Regards,

LF

IWM35483 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A photograph of a Simplex ' Semi-Armoured ' light rail locomotive, photographed on the Western Front, with its armoured doors in the open position.

LF

AWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An ' Open ' Simplex 20 hp light rail locomotive evacuating wounded, and passing a massive 12 inch Railway Gun on the outskirts of Arras on 29th April, 1917.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[David Filsell]

Thank you Lancs. You never disappoint. But I remain convinced that the infrequency of pictures of such an unusual vehicle does tend to indicate that they fell into disuse as I have read. Think about it, a strong man can lift the rear of a model T. Light weight on metal wheels on steel track and a apparent lack of ballast under Western Front conditions? I would love to be proven wrong if there is evidence

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thank you Lancs. You never disappoint. But I remain convinced that the infrequency of pictures of such an unusual vehicle does tend to indicate that they fell into disuse as I have read. Think about it, a strong man can lift the rear of a model T. Light weight on metal wheels on steel track and a apparent lack of ballast under Western Front conditions? I would love to be proven wrong if there is evidence

David,

Photographs of the fully armoured ' Simplex ' in use on the Western Front are somewhat rare, as there were less than 30 in use. However, I have several other ' Simplex ' photos still to post including a rare fully armoured version still in use on the Front Line in 1918.

Regards,

LF

[johnboy]

[Gardenerbill]

L.F.

This entry in the 801st MT Company war diary suggests they were building there own petrol tractors out in Salonika:

‘To LIKOVAN in the petrol tractor on Decauville Rly, made by Lt Waithman with 10 H.P. Austin w’shop engine & Ford axle with a view to seeing if petrol tractors could be made to supersede rail traction pulled 22 men & large bogie truck but came off road several times as railway very badly ballasted’

The diary goes on to document the construction of seven tractors. Do you think Ford axle really means Ford chassis?

[johnboy]

A fully armoured Simplex

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=37934

[Lancashire Fusilier]

For my 5,000th Great War Forum post, here is an excellent photograph of two soldiers with a semi-armoured ' Protected ' Simplex 40 hp locomotive coupled to a small, low sided 1 ton goods wagon, which is carrying a large radiator for another Simplex locomotive. The ' Simplex ' semi-armoured locomotive has stopped on a light railway line which passed through the Havrincourt Wood, and the locomotive's armoured access doors have been opened.

Havrincourt Wood is close to the small village of Havrincourt which is just south-west of Cambrai in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of Northern France.

At the start of WW1, Havrincourt was on the Hindenburg Main Line and was occupied by the Germans until it was taken by the British in the opening phase of the Battle of Cambrai in November 1917.

In the second Battle of Havrincourt fought during September 1918, the Germans were pushed back to the Belgian border.

With the relaxed stance of the soldiers, and their ' Simplex ' stopped with its armoured doors open, I suspect this photo was taken after the Germans had been pushed well back from Havrincourt after September 1918.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

L.F.

This entry in the 801st MT Company war diary suggests they were building there own petrol tractors out in Salonika:

‘To LIKOVAN in the petrol tractor on Decauville Rly, made by Lt Waithman with 10 H.P. Austin w’shop engine & Ford axle with a view to seeing if petrol tractors could be made to supersede rail traction pulled 22 men & large bogie truck but came off road several times as railway very badly ballasted’

The diary goes on to document the construction of seven tractors. Do you think Ford axle really means Ford chassis?

Mark,

It was certainly true that light rail tractors were made from old motor car parts, and the reference to the Ford axle probably refers to parts taken from the Ford chassis including its axle.

The ' Decauville Rly ' refers to the type of light railway line that was laid, which was the highly portable and easily laid light railway, narrow gauge line system invented by the Frenchman, Paul Decauville ( 1846-1922 ) in 1875. The ' Decauville ' light rail system consisted of lengths of light rail narrow gauge rails coming already fitted to metal rail sleepers, which allowed for the instant laying of the light rail track once the ground had been prepared. The ' Decauville ' light rail narrow gauge line system was used extensively by the British Royal Engineers on the Western Front, and obviously also in Salonika.

Whilst not taken in Salonika, attached are 2 photographs of a light rail tractor made from old car parts being used on a light railway line in the Somme area, which was probably very similar to the old car parts tractor used in Salonika and mentioned in the 801st MT Company war diary.

Note the ' Scotch Express ' sign fitted to the front of the tractor.

Regards,

LF

IWM These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Somme ' Scotch Express ' light rail tractor, made from old motor car parts.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

johnboy,

Thanks for posting that interesting drawing, which going by the caption, shows a French ' Decauville ' light rail tractor. The French ' Decauville ' company founded by Paul Decauville, started by producing ready made light rail narrow gauge rail systems, and then went on to make locomotives and motor cars.

Interestingly, that Decauville light rail tractor shown in the drawing, is using a ' Simplex ' radiator with a ' Motor Rail Ltd ' name plate used by the Motor Rail and Tram Car Co. Ltd., of Bedford, England.

Regards,

LF