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Lancashire Fusilier

WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

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johnboy

The things I referred to as jacks in an earlier thread are not. They seem to be used to control the pressure. Hence what looks like a pressure gauge and pipework going to the press. Whether one is for putting the pressure up and the other to release it, I am not sure.

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Lancashire Fusilier

The things I referred to as jacks in an earlier thread are not. They seem to be used to control the pressure. Hence what looks like a pressure gauge and pipework going to the press. Whether one is for putting the pressure up and the other to release it, I am not sure.

johnboy,

The 2 levers being operated by the ASC Corporal, one lever is used to apply the downward hydraulic pressure needed to press fit the new tyre on the wheel, and the other lever presumably is used to provide upward pressure when pulling the worn tyre off the wheel ?

The several metal fittings shown being placed on the top of the tyre, apply the downward pressure around the new tyre forcing it down onto the wheel, and perhaps those same fittings are placed under the worn tyre, and the upward pressure pulls the worn tyre off the wheel ?

LF

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johnboy

Quite possibly. If the tyre was pressed on with downward pressure at a known ppi, then an increase in pressure would also push it off.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Quite possibly. If the tyre was pressed on with downward pressure at a known ppi, then an increase in pressure would also push it off.

That is what I was unsure about, is the old worn tyre pulled up off the wheel, or pushed down off the wheel ?

LF

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johnboy

I am wondering if the rim was deeper on one side. eg when the wheel was on maybe the outside rim was deeper? From a safety point of view, pushing downwards and not upwards towards the men would be best.

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GRANVILLE

Just catching up after being away for a week. What a tremendous set of photos showing the ASC at work in the wheel & tyre depots - great stuff!

David

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Lancashire Fusilier

Just catching up after being away for a week. What a tremendous set of photos showing the ASC at work in the wheel & tyre depots - great stuff!

David

David,

Pleased to hear you are finding the ASC related posts interesting, and although their work may not be considered by some as being as glamorous as that of some of the other branches of the British military in WW1, their work was certainly critical in keeping the British Army on the move, and well supplied.

Army Service Corps Base Mechanical Transport Depots, such as that at Rouen, were vast undertakings, and the following photographs all taken at ASC Rouen, remind us of the scope and scale of the ASC's work.

The first two photographs show a shipment of 789 ambulances, which were processed through ASC Rouen for the Scottish Red Cross. Of note, are the Red Cross officers uniforms, cap insignia and cuff rank braids.

Regards,

LF

IWM These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

post-63666-0-97939000-1402836692_thumb.j

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Lancashire Fusilier

789 Scottish Red Cross Ambulances, having been processed through ASC Rouen, are lined up ready for issue.

LF

IWM These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

post-63666-0-88177800-1402836997_thumb.j

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johnboy

The one in the foreground has a spare wheel . The one behind it just a spare tyre,

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Rockdoc

That is what I was unsure about, is the old worn tyre pulled up off the wheel, or pushed down off the wheel ?

LF

I'd guess all the operations worked in the same direction. The hydraulic ram is in the base of the press so the maximum force will be applied when that moved upwards. Any downward forces would have been generated over a much smaller area, i.e. the cross-sectional area of the piston would be missing. I did wonder whether the wheel would have been rotated to even out the pressure over the tyre but the bed is square so it couldn't move except for up and down.

It's possible that the fittings used to remove and fit the tyres were different. During removal, the tyre is supported by the rim and any damage done during the work is irrelevant. Fitting the tyre is a different matter since the tyre needed to be pressed on squarely and with minimal damage.

Keith

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Lancashire Fusilier

I'd guess all the operations worked in the same direction. The hydraulic ram is in the base of the press so the maximum force will be applied when that moved upwards. Any downward forces would have been generated over a much smaller area, i.e. the cross-sectional area of the piston would be missing. I did wonder whether the wheel would have been rotated to even out the pressure over the tyre but the bed is square so it couldn't move except for up and down.

It's possible that the fittings used to remove and fit the tyres were different. During removal, the tyre is supported by the rim and any damage done during the work is irrelevant. Fitting the tyre is a different matter since the tyre needed to be pressed on squarely and with minimal damage.

Keith

Keith,

Here is a photograph of the hydraulic Tyre Press at the 2nd ASC Repair Shop in Chantiers, it is a slightly different type of hydraulic Tyre Press to that at Hesdin, and it may give some clues as to the tyre changing process.

In the photographs in posts # 1948 and # 1949, the metal ' Jacks/Spacers ? ' are being positioned on top of the ' new ' tyre, whereas in this photo those same metal ' Jacks/Spacers ? ' are positioned under the old ' worn ' tyre.

It looks like, for fitting the new tyre on the wheel those ' Jacks/Spacers ? ' are positioned on top of the tyre, and when removing the old worn tyre, those same ' Jacks/Spacers ? ' are positioned under the tyre.

So with the hydraulic press applying upwards pressure, was the wheel forced onto the new tyre ? and when removing the old worn tyre, was again upward pressure used to force the old tyre off the wheel ?

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

post-63666-0-44461100-1402859303_thumb.j

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Rockdoc

The supports in this photo are against the rim of the wheel, not the tyre, so that the wheel doesn't risk being distorted as pressure is applied. The hub is supported by the structure in the middle of the lower platen. I would say that the blocks to apply pressure to the tyre have yet to be fitted to the upper platen. You couldn't operate the press in this state. All you could do would be load the entire wheel against the upper platen. You can't push the tyre upwards because there's nowhere for it to go.

The equivalent blocks on the lower platen probably wouldn't need to be removed. It looks like the wheel assembly is lifted onto the lower platen and raised until chains can be run around spokes and attached to the hook in the centre, for stability and safety. The blocks applying pressure to the tyres would move them down and they'd drop into the space below the wheel. The techniques for applying a new tyre are what interest me more. I can see that dropping the lower platen and letting the wheel hang on the chains would allow removal of the old tyres but the platen would have to be raised again and the chains removed, temporarily perhaps, to allow room to put the new tyre(s) over the wheel. It is possible that tyres were delivered on a former that could be placed over the wheel and offer the tyre support while it was pressed onto the rim but until a photo of that part of the operation appears we can only speculate.

Keith

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GRANVILLE

Keith. If you look back at post 1942 you can see that the same type of press is being used and how the men are carefully positioning blocks between the top side of the wheel and the circular platen as you call it. This is because the tyre will be pressed off by the action of the lower platen being hydraulically pushed up, I don't believe the hub us supported at all if you look closely and that the upstands that can be seen are for the wheel and tyre to be lowered onto via the hook & chain - block & tackle. These upstands catch just the tyre so that as the hydraulic compression takes place, the wheel is prevented from going any further up by the blocks on it's top side, but the lower platen and upstands press off the tyre. The colour photo of the similar press seems to me to show that it works on exactly the same principle. You can actually see the compressed air supply pipe in the photo of post 1960. It's been bent no doubt by some fitter standing on it tripping over it!

Adding to the above, what I'm not entirely clear on is the raising of the wheel & tyre(s) into the press position. Once in position, they clearly hang from a hook and chain and a pair of wheels & tyres would be significantly heavy. You can clearly see a pair of wheels hanging from the hoist in preparation but another pair are already being worked on which slightly confuses me. I had presumed the set to be worked on would be hoisted up on the chain and then swung into position via a cut-out slot in the top platen. Maybe there is a second hoist on the far side of the press not visible to the camera so the men can work on one and have another ready to go as soon as the first comes out , which I guess would make sense.

David

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Lancashire Fusilier

The large ASC MT Depot as Hesdin had at least 2 different types of tyre press, as are shown in posts 1948 and 1949, and in both photographs the hydraulic press is being prepared to fit a new tyre onto the wheel.

I do not know for just how long this type of hydraulic tyre press was used by the British Army, and perhaps they saw service into WW2, or even the early days of ' National Service ', so hopefully, there could still be a Forum member who remembers using such a tyre press.

In the meantime, I am sure Keith and David will work out how the tyre press was used.

LF

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johnboy

I doubt that a press was used in WW2 as the tyres would be pneumatic. From my days in heavy haulage normally the air would be released via the valve. Two tyre bars would be used to take off the locking ring. With the wheel laying on the ground you would stand on the edge of the rim to break the seal between tyre and rim. You would then turn the wheel over and put the end of a tyre bar in between the rim and tyre edge. This would be done with long end of the bar facing the hub. The bar would be pressed down and held with your foot. Another bar would be inserted in the same way a few inches along. Once the tyre was lifted over the rim it was a matter of using the two bars until the whole tyre was off.

This process is now done by machine.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Interestingly, German prisoners of war were used extensively in the Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport Depots different workshops, and staying with the tyre theme, not only were rubber tyres in their thousands used by the British military, but also even more rubber tyre inner tubes were used, and whenever possible damaged inner tubes were repaired.

In the attached photographs, we can see German P.O.W.s working the in the tyre inner tube repair shop at ASC Rouen in May 1918.

LF

IWM9976 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

post-63666-0-62538200-1402924018_thumb.j

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Lancashire Fusilier

German P.O.W.s at work in the tyre inner tube repair workshop at the ASC MT Depot at Rouen, the photograph is dated 31 May 1918.

LF

IWM9977 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

post-63666-0-05046200-1402924404_thumb.j

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Rockdoc

Keith. If you look back at post 1942 you can see that the same type of press is being used and how the men are carefully positioning blocks between the top side of the wheel and the circular platen as you call it. This is because the tyre will be pressed off by the action of the lower platen being hydraulically pushed up, I don't believe the hub us supported at all if you look closely and that the upstands that can be seen are for the wheel and tyre to be lowered onto via the hook & chain - block & tackle. These upstands catch just the tyre so that as the hydraulic compression takes place, the wheel is prevented from going any further up by the blocks on it's top side, but the lower platen and upstands press off the tyre. The colour photo of the similar press seems to me to show that it works on exactly the same principle. You can actually see the compressed air supply pipe in the photo of post 1960. It's been bent no doubt by some fitter standing on it tripping over it!

You're right that the hub isn't supported, David. I mistook the downward-projecting part of the hub and the block behind it for a central support. I'd also not spotted that the top platen had a slot to allow the cranes to lift the wheels into place so it's likely the chains would have been removed while the press was working. However, I still believe that the lower blocks are against the rim. Blocks from the upper platen onto the tyre(s) allow downward force to be applied as the lower platens is raised, as you say, but you need to support the rim to prevent it twisting and making the removal/replacement more difficult. Certainly new tyres would have been pressed on in a very similar way to how the old ones were taken off but I have no idea how you would stop the tyre deforming during this process. They have to be a very tight fit so the loads applied would not have been insignificant. In the photo showing a tyre about to be pressed on, I can see levelling blocks on the bottom platen against the rim so that the tyre isn't pushed too far, just as you'd expect.

It isn't clear how the wheels were handled through the workshop but it's certainly possible that it was a one-way system. That way the finished wheels couldn't get mixed up with those awaiting replacement tyres.

Thanks for the correction.

Keith

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johnboy

I have a feeling that the tyre came attached with a steel band. Tyhis would have lessened the chances of the tyre twisting and made the pressing on easier. There must have been different size plattens for the different size wheels. Unless of course, they were put on from the flat side of the wheel.

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GRANVILLE

You're right that the hub isn't supported, David. I mistook the downward-projecting part of the hub and the block behind it for a central support. I'd also not spotted that the top platen had a slot to allow the cranes to lift the wheels into place so it's likely the chains would have been removed while the press was working. However, I still believe that the lower blocks are against the rim. Blocks from the upper platen onto the tyre(s) allow downward force to be applied as the lower platens is raised, as you say, but you need to support the rim to prevent it twisting and making the removal/replacement more difficult. Certainly new tyres would have been pressed on in a very similar way to how the old ones were taken off but I have no idea how you would stop the tyre deforming during this process. They have to be a very tight fit so the loads applied would not have been insignificant. In the photo showing a tyre about to be pressed on, I can see levelling blocks on the bottom platen against the rim so that the tyre isn't pushed too far, just as you'd expect.

It isn't clear how the wheels were handled through the workshop but it's certainly possible that it was a one-way system. That way the finished wheels couldn't get mixed up with those awaiting replacement tyres.

Thanks for the correction.

Keith

Actually Keith, I think you could well be right in that the tyres are pressed down to get them off.

David

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phil@basildon

Some wheels were also fitted with a 'split rim' which also made it easier to change tyres.

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johnboy

I am not sure if split rims were used with solid tyres.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Those metal lorry wheels were of a substantial weight, as can be seen from this photograph showing a delivery of metal lorry wheels into store at the Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport Depot at Rouen, along with other supplies.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

post-63666-0-66409600-1403006670_thumb.j

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Lancashire Fusilier

Another example of German Prisoners of War working for the Army Service Corps, this time in the Motorcycle Wheel Repair Shop in the No.4 Heavy Workshops, Salvage Works, at ASC Rouen.

This photograph, was taken on 10th October 1918, just before WW1 ended.

LF

IWM29667 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

post-63666-0-62864000-1403027709_thumb.j

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RobL

I don't know if this has been raised before but while reading FM Slim's recently published 'authorised biography' Uncle Bill the author repeats a story first told by Slim in his account 'Unofficial History', his memoir of WW1. The story goes that Tony Ayrton was the CO of an armoured car squadron in Mesopatamia and whenever Slim and his Warwicks were in a tight spot they would come over the hill and clear the ground. As the war draws to a close Ayrton, by devious means manages to ship home a 'buckshee Rolls' which is re-bodied, painted yellow and christened 'Elizabeth'. Slim meets Ayrton in London and is given a lift in the vehicle to a London club, he thinks Ayrton must have inherited the car but Ayrton tells him this is not so and it was previously an armoured car. . It's a wonderful story - but can it be true?

Were any armoured cars legitimately turned in to civilian vehicles at the end of the war? I'd welcome an expert opinion, but in any event it seems worth sharing.

Ken

The full story, from Unofficial History, is:-

'Well," said Tony Ayrton, leaning back in his

armchair in the club, 'we salved the chassis of that car (i.e., a

Rolls-Royce armoured car)--about all there was to salve--and slipped into

it the engine of the one that fell into the NULLAH, you remember? We'd

carted that engine about with us for weeks. Our mechanics made a good job

of it. There was no difficulty about spares and oddments; by that time

Mesopotamia was bulging with spares for everything, and when our carpenter

had fitted a box-body, made from wood looted from the Inland Water

Department, we had a perfectly good extra car. And the beauty of it was

that it wasn't on the strength--pure buckshee!'

'But it must have been discovered some time?' I protested.

'As a matter of fact we had no trouble at all until the battery was due to

embark for home in 1919. You know how narrow-minded those embarkation

wallahs are: anybody'd think another half-ton would sink the blooming ship

to hear 'em talk! They said an armoured car battery had an establishment

of so many vehicles, they'd ship that number but not a car, not a bicycle,

not a perambulator more--and would I please note the ship was sailing in

two hours.

'it was time for action, old boy, not words. I put my sergeant-major at

the wheel of a Ford van and I took the spare Rolls myself. We drove hard

for ten miles out into the desert and there we left that Ford van. I

daresay some old sheikh found it and still drives his friday hawking party

round in it. Anyway, the Rolls went into the hold and the Ford stayed in

the desert. Everybody was happy, especially the Embarkation Staff; for the

battery had sailed with its exact establishment of vehicles--in numbers at

any rate.

'But what about the other end?' I asked. 'What about handing over in England?'

'Ah!' said Tony. ' "ver difficile but I arrange", as they say in Port

Said. I've got a brother. Not a bad bloke as brothers go, I wired him

from Aden, and when we tied up at Southhampton, there was Bother Bill with

a nice part-worn Henry Ford sitting on the quayside. You could get 'em

pretty well for nothing from surplus stores: they almost paid you to take

'em away in those days. When the spare Rolls was lifted out Bill drove her

away and trundled old Henry into her place. Battery present and correct,

sir! We fitted a decent body to the Rolls, and voila--Elizabeth!

'Yes, but why Elizabeth?' I asked.

'Don't you see? Brush up your history, my dear chap. 'Think of the jolly

old Tudors. Didn't Elizabeth succeed Henry?'

'No" I replied, feeling rather superior; 'as a matter of fact she didn't:

Edward the VI did.'

'Oh, well, you couldn't call a car Edward the Sixth; everybody'd think

you'd had five others. Besides, it would have to be a girl's name anyway,

love interest and all that.'

'Then it ought to have been Mary, she came next.'

'Did she?' said Tony, slightly crestfallen. Then he cheered up. 'Oh, but

you couldn't call a peach of a car like

this Bloody Mary!'

With thanks to https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/OpenBerk/conversations/topics/1004 for saving me typing the whole tale!

Claude Grahame-White, well known aviator of the time, converted surplus Rolls Royce armoured cars to be suitable for civilian use then sold on at Hendon after the war

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