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Lancashire Fusilier

WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

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Lancashire Fusilier

A Mannesman Munar with chain drive.

Johnboy,

Not a great deal is known or recorded regarding the Mannesmann-MULAG ' Straßenpanzerwagen ', we do know that a few were built by the German Motor Company Mannesman-MULAG ( Mulag standing for engines and trucks AG ) of Aachen, Germany, shortly before the start of WW1 and those few were sold to the Tsar's Imperial Russian Army and ironically, ended up being used against the Germans in the East.

In 1900 Fritz Scheibler and his son Kurt founded Fritz Scheibler Motorenfabrik AG, which made engines and trucks in Aachen, Germany, and between 1900 and 1913 the Company underwent various changes and mergers until in 1913, when it merged with Gebr Mannesmann AG., to become Mannesmann - MULAG.

The Mannesmann - MULAG ' Straßenpanzerwagen ' or Armoured Street Fighting Vehicle was probably based on Mannesmann's successful large 5 ton truck chassis, and when fitted with all its armour plating, plus it was armed with a heavy rear firing Hotchkiss 47 mm Naval Gun, the sheer weight of this armoured vehicle must have confined its use to well made streets and roads rather than it having any off road capability whatsoever due to its massive weight, hence it being described as a Straßenpanzerwagen or Armoured Street Fighting Vehicle.

It is not recorded how many were actually made before the start of WW1 and sold to the Russians, I suspect very few. I did however read that none have survived, with the last remaining example being scrapped in Russia in 1921.

Your drawing refers to a ' Mannesmann Munar ' vehicle, I do not know if that ' Munar ' is a mistake for ' Mulag ' or if Mannesmann-MULAG supplied the chassis to the Russians with the vehicle's other parts being supplied and fitted in Russia by a Russian Company ' Munar ', and that maybe is where the Mannesmann Munar comes from ? There are various well known instances where truck chassis were supplied to the Russians for Armoured Cars, and some of the work was completed in Russia by a Russian Company who then added their name to the finished armoured car's name. A well known English/Russian armoured car collaboration, being the Austin-Putilov armoured car.

Attached is a rare photograph of a Mannesmann-MULAG Straßenpanzerwagen as sold to the Russians, showing its large size, and its main armament, the 47 mm Hotchkiss Naval Gun. It is photographed parked in a City street, and looks to be having some work done on it, and it is not showing the side and front firing Maxim machines guns normally mounted in the side and front machine gun ports, which were its secondary armaments.

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Scalyback

Why did the germans do everything so large?

As always great stuff.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Why did the germans do everything so large

Scalyback,

Here is another example of the German ' Big is Beautiful ' ethos, with this superb piece of motor engineering made by the German Mannesmann-Mulag Company, the same Company who produced the large Mannesman-Mulag Straßenpanzerwagen.

Clearly Mannesmann-Mulag had a liking for the bigger vehicles, with this WW1 German Army Staff Car/Troop Transporter being able to seat some 38 men! ( some of the others appear to be standing outside of the vehicle ) which was obviously a great way to move a lot of men at the same time.

Also, note the soft leather uniform overcoats being worn by the soldiers.

The radiator grill on this vehicle carries the typical stylised ' Mannesmann-mulag ' lettering, in all, a fantastic vehicle.

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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johnboy

]May be because they were designing war motors a lot earlier than us . This one is a Daimler from 1904.

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Rockdoc

Or perhaps becauise they did not anticipate using them off metalled roads? You can't imagine that troop transporter on soft ground. It woud be up to the axles in moments.

keith

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Mike_H

LF

You are doing us all a great service by posting so many really good photos, is there any chance of you including the neg numbers for the IWM 'Q' series pics?

Thanks,

Mike

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johnboy

You're probably right. They were probably thinking of driving in and taking over with no resistance! But at that time vehicles were fairly new concept.

Drive belts, drive chains, solid tyres , minimal suspension , narrow wheels and tyres, single drive etc. None of these vehicles were built for speed. As the war progressed the vehicles design also progressed.

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Lancashire Fusilier

]May be because they were designing war motors a lot earlier than us . This one is a Daimler from 1904.

Johnboy,

This is technically an ' Austrian ' creation, known as an Austro-Daimler, with this prototype armoured vehicle being produced at the Osterreichisches Daimler Moteren AG factory at Wiener-Neustadt in Austria in 1904, where until 1905, Gottlieb Daimler's son Paul was the chief engineer.

The Austro-Daimler Armoured Car prototype was ahead of its time, having 4-wheel drive powered by a Daimler 35 hp. engine. With its armour plating being that much thinner than on WW1 Armoured Cars, the vehicles weight was only 3 tons and was able to achieve 28 mph.

Originally armed with just one Maxim machine gun, and later modified to take 2 Maxims.

The Austro-Daimler Armoured Car prototype was offered to both the German Imperial Army in 1905, and to the Austro-Hungarian Army in 1906, and was not accepted by either Armies and so the Austro-Daimler armoured vehicle never went into production.

Clearly military thinking and planning at that time had not yet identified the need for an armoured well armed vehicle, or an ' Armoured Car '.

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

is there any chance of you including the neg numbers for the IWM 'Q' series pics?

Thanks,

Mike

Mike,

I do try to post those IWM nos as and when I know them, having been collecting military photographs for many years, back then I never bothered to record any source information, as at that time, I never intended sharing them as I do now on the GWF.

Sometimes, I noted the source for future reference, and sometimes I look up the source for additional information, and you will note that when I know the IWM No., I do gladly give it.

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

The Austro-Daimler Panzerwagen 4x4 photographed on display to the Austro-Hungarian Army in 1906, note the modified twin Maxim machine gun ports.


This photograph, also gives us a good size comparison between the Austro-Daimler Panzerwagen and the two other vehicles.



LF




This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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Lancashire Fusilier

An enlargement of the photograph shown in the previous post, giving us a lot of excellent details of the Austro-Daimler Panzerwagen 4x4 photographed in 1906.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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johnboy

Bit of a pocket battleship!

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Mike_H

Mike,

I do try to post those IWM nos as and when I know them, having been collecting military photographs for many years, back then I never bothered to record any source information, as at that time, I never intended sharing them as I do now on the GWF.

Sometimes, I noted the source for future reference, and sometimes I look up the source for additional information, and you will note that when I know the IWM No., I do gladly give it.

Regards,

LF

Thanks for that, grateful for your generous postings

Mike

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Lancashire Fusilier

In addition to the vehicles shown in the previous posts and other general purpose lorries supplied to the German Army during WW1, the German Motor Company Mannesmann-Mulag also supplied another specialised armoured vehicle to the German Army, a Panzerkraftwagen.

Produced in 1916, and using the chassis from one of their large commercial lorries, this vehicle, although heavily armoured, was really an armoured personnel carrier rather than an armoured car.

The Panzerkraftwagen had no permanent armament, however there were firing ports on all sides of the vehicle for the occupants to use machine guns or small arms fire in either an offensive or defensive mode.

Looking remarkably like the modern day armoured trucks used to transport large amounts of cash, this armoured vehicle was probably used as an armoured mobile command post, or a well protected vehicle to transport high-ranking officers in battlefield areas.

Attached are two photographs of the 1916 Mannesmann-Mulag Panzerkraftwagen.

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

The use of Armoured Command Vehicles was carried over into WW2, and they were used by both the Germans and the British.

One notable German Armoured Command Car user was Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel, and attached are 2 photographs of his WW2 Armoured Command Vehicle.

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

The WW2 British ' Dorchester ' Armoured Command Vehicle.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

A photograph I have not posted before, showing good details of the front of one of Brutinel's 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade's Autocar armoured vehicles. A soldier is seen painting chevron markings to the front of the Autocar, also note the mascot fixed to the front of the Autocar.


This photo gives us a sense of the size of the small driver's compartment at the front of the vehicle, based on the soldier wearing the leather jerkin, presumably the driver, standing in the driver's compartment, and the overall height of the vehicle based on the soldier standing outside the vehicle.



LF



This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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GRANVILLE

To be honest whenever I see images of these type of armoured vehicles they remind me of the 'armoured' go-carts we used to make as kids! :)

David

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Lancashire Fusilier

To be honest whenever I see images of these type of armoured vehicles they remind me of the 'armoured' go-carts we used to make as kids! :)

David

David,

I have always wondered why, when Brutinel designed the Autocar Armoured Vehicle he did not fit much higher armoured sides to the vehicle with protected firing ports, or at least provide armoured shields for the Vickers machine guns.

In the attached photograph of an Autocar Armoured Vehicle in action in France, this being one of the few such ' in action ' photos of an Autocar Armoured Vehicle, we can see just how completely vulnerable the crew, especially the Gunners, were to in-coming enemy fire, with their heads, shoulders and arms completely exposed above the armoured sides of the vehicle. Whilst you have to admire their sheer bravery, this lack of protection accounted for the very high losses which these Autocar Armoured Vehicles and their crews sustained.

I also acknowledge that as compared to the average infantryman going into action, they were by comparison, still well protected.

Regards,

LF

IWM3085 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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phil@basildon

It could be that the weight of any more armour would be too much for the chassis or possibly raise the centre of gravity and make it unstable.

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johnboy

I'd agree Phil. Skinny tyres and I am not sure if it had singles on the rear.

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Lancashire Fusilier

It could be that the weight of any more armour would be too much for the chassis or possibly raise the centre of gravity and make it unstable.

Phil,

I am sure you are correct, and that is probably why Brutinel's design ended up as it did. Just looking at it 100 years later and as someone with no military experience at all, I would of thought that even an armoured shield for the Vickers machine guns would have helped, the type fitted to the Clyno motorcycles. Perhaps, they already looked at all those possibilities, and for various operational reasons, or sheer lack of space in the vehicle, ruled them out.

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

I'd agree Phil. Skinny tyres and I am not sure if it had singles on the rear.

johnboy,

Single wheels also on the back, as shown in post #1893.

Regards,

LF

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johnboy

The spec for the Autocar

Armour 0,10 mm

Speed 40kmph

Crew 8

Weight 3t

Manufactured 20.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Graphic and tragic consequences, following an attack on a 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade's Autocar armoured vehicle. Both photographs appear to be of the same vehicle, which looks to be relatively undamaged both internally and externally so the attack was probably directed against the crew with the enemy using machine guns or rifle fire, with the Autocar's crew being killed in the resulting firefight.

From the debris around the vehicle, we can see the large quantity of Vickers machine gun ammunition containers which were stored in the vehicle.

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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