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Lancashire Fusilier

WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

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Lancashire Fusilier

Is there a thread on the forum that talks about battles where armoured cars were used and if so how successful they were?

I would start by researching the 17th ( Armoured Car ) Battalion, Tank Corps.

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

This photo shows the camouflage paint scheme used on the Mk.1 Tank, this tank being a Mk.1 Male Tank.

Also attached are 2 examples of coloured artwork illustrating the Mk.1 Tank's camouflage paint scheme.

The coloured postcard of the Mk.1 Male Tank ' Chartreuse ' with the No. C5, is incorrect, as ' C5 ' was allocated the Mk.1 Male Tank ' Creme de Menthe ', and the tank ' Chartreuse ' was numbered C3.

The other coloured illustration of the Mk.1 Male Tank ' C19 ', that number was allocated to the tank named ' Clan Leslie '.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

The coloured postcard of the Mk.1 Male Tank ' Chartreuse ' with the No. C5, is incorrect, as ' C5 ' was allocated the Mk.1 Male Tank ' Creme de Menthe ', and the tank ' Chartreuse ' was numbered C3.


The other coloured illustration of the Mk.1 Male Tank ' C19 ', that number was allocated to the tank named ' Clan Leslie '.



LF



These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.



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David Filsell

Dear Lancashire Fusilier - is there no end to your collection? Most impressive

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Lancashire Fusilier

is there no end to your collection? Most impressive

David,

I am pleased that you are enjoying this Thread.

I have been collecting photographs/images for many years, so I have plenty of them still to share.

Regards,

LF

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Rockdoc

You may soon have to start another thread! Some forums I use have a limit of 99 pages to a topic.

Keith

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Lancashire Fusilier

You may soon have to start another thread! Some forums I use have a limit of 99 pages to a topic.

Keith

Keith,

I am sure we shall get to page 99, so it will be interesting. I hope this Forum does not have that limit, otherwise, it will be WW1 Motors - Continuation Thread No.2.

Continuing with the camouflage theme, here is a photo that I know you will find particularly interesting, it shows a variation ' Blotchy ' much smaller pattern camouflage painted on a Peerless truck mounting an Anti-Aircraft Gun belonging to the 120th A. A. Section at Ramleh, Palestine.

Men from the A.A. Unit are seen digging out one of their guns, preparatory to moving to a new position.
LF
IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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patrick Eggs

Hello Gardenerbill , Re your post1824 about Armoured Cars ,as LF has mentioned the the 17th (Armoured Car) Battalion Tank Corps, a forum was started some time ago , if you search for it on the GWF.

REf. 17th (Armoured Car ) Battalion Tank Corps . you will find some interesting notes and ref. notes at the IWM and various members comments and actions of the 17th.AC Bt. From April to December 1918 500 men of the 17th. AC covered a lot of ground and many battles over about 8 months.

Regards.

Crimson Rambler.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Here is an interesting and very unusual variation of the ' Disruptive ' camouflage pattern, seen painted on a Peerless lorry mounted with a 13 pdr. 9 cwt Anti-Aircraft Gun which has been fitted to a 3-inch Type ' A ' gun mounting.

Also of particular note, is the use of a bi-pod gun barrel support, this being the only photo I have seen of such a barrel support in use.

LF

C/o War Cars - D. Fletcher. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Gardenerbill

Reply to post #1832

Thanks Crimson Rambler I have found the thread. my Grandfather's MT company looked after the armoured cars of the 6th Armoured Motor Battery while they were in Salonika.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Here is another variation of a camouflaged paint scheme using a ' Daubed ' pattern, shown painted on an Armoured Car belonging to the Royal Marine Artillery ( R.M.A. ) Anti-Aircraft Battery ( A.A.B. ).


This Armoured Car is mounted on an American Pierce-Arrow truck chassis, with the armoured bodywork fitted by Wolseley Motors, and the armour plate and the 1 pdr Pom-Pom supplied by Vickers. 48 of these ' Pierce-Arrow/Wolseley ' Armoured Cars were completed, some being armed with the 1 pdr Pom-Pom.



LF



This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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Lancashire Fusilier

Another photograph of a Pierce-Arrow/Wolseley Armoured Car, which again clearly shows the use of a ' Daubed ' pattern camouflage paint scheme.

This particular Pierce-Arrow/Wolseley Armoured Car, was photographed on the Flanders Front.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Scalyback

Top work Sir!

Edit, the "Who is this" thread runs to over 200 pages,so this thread is safe for size.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Edit, the "Who is this" thread runs to over 200 pages,so this thread is safe for size.

Many thanks, I did take a look at the pages sizes for other threads, and as you say, saw 200 pages, so we shall keep going.

Regards,

LF

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kenf48

I don't know if this has been raised before but while reading FM Slim's recently published 'authorised biography' Uncle Bill the author repeats a story first told by Slim in his account 'Unofficial History', his memoir of WW1. The story goes that Tony Ayrton was the CO of an armoured car squadron in Mesopatamia and whenever Slim and his Warwicks were in a tight spot they would come over the hill and clear the ground. As the war draws to a close Ayrton, by devious means manages to ship home a 'buckshee Rolls' which is re-bodied, painted yellow and christened 'Elizabeth'. Slim meets Ayrton in London and is given a lift in the vehicle to a London club, he thinks Ayrton must have inherited the car but Ayrton tells him this is not so and it was previously an armoured car. . It's a wonderful story - but can it be true?

Were any armoured cars legitimately turned in to civilian vehicles at the end of the war? I'd welcome an expert opinion, but in any event it seems worth sharing.

Ken

The full story, from Unofficial History, is:-

'Well," said Tony Ayrton, leaning back in his
armchair in the club, 'we salved the chassis of that car (i.e., a
Rolls-Royce armoured car)--about all there was to salve--and slipped into
it the engine of the one that fell into the NULLAH, you remember? We'd
carted that engine about with us for weeks. Our mechanics made a good job
of it. There was no difficulty about spares and oddments; by that time
Mesopotamia was bulging with spares for everything, and when our carpenter
had fitted a box-body, made from wood looted from the Inland Water
Department, we had a perfectly good extra car. And the beauty of it was
that it wasn't on the strength--pure buckshee!'

'But it must have been discovered some time?' I protested.

'As a matter of fact we had no trouble at all until the battery was due to
embark for home in 1919. You know how narrow-minded those embarkation
wallahs are: anybody'd think another half-ton would sink the blooming ship
to hear 'em talk! They said an armoured car battery had an establishment
of so many vehicles, they'd ship that number but not a car, not a bicycle,
not a perambulator more--and would I please note the ship was sailing in
two hours.

'it was time for action, old boy, not words. I put my sergeant-major at
the wheel of a Ford van and I took the spare Rolls myself. We drove hard
for ten miles out into the desert and there we left that Ford van. I
daresay some old sheikh found it and still drives his friday hawking party
round in it. Anyway, the Rolls went into the hold and the Ford stayed in
the desert. Everybody was happy, especially the Embarkation Staff; for the
battery had sailed with its exact establishment of vehicles--in numbers at
any rate.

'But what about the other end?' I asked. 'What about handing over in England?'

'Ah!' said Tony. ' "ver difficile but I arrange", as they say in Port
Said. I've got a brother. Not a bad bloke as brothers go, I wired him
from Aden, and when we tied up at Southhampton, there was Bother Bill with
a nice part-worn Henry Ford sitting on the quayside. You could get 'em
pretty well for nothing from surplus stores: they almost paid you to take
'em away in those days. When the spare Rolls was lifted out Bill drove her
away and trundled old Henry into her place. Battery present and correct,
sir! We fitted a decent body to the Rolls, and voila--Elizabeth!

'Yes, but why Elizabeth?' I asked.

'Don't you see? Brush up your history, my dear chap. 'Think of the jolly
old Tudors. Didn't Elizabeth succeed Henry?'

'No" I replied, feeling rather superior; 'as a matter of fact she didn't:
Edward the VI did.'

'Oh, well, you couldn't call a car Edward the Sixth; everybody'd think
you'd had five others. Besides, it would have to be a girl's name anyway,
love interest and all that.'

'Then it ought to have been Mary, she came next.'

'Did she?' said Tony, slightly crestfallen. Then he cheered up. 'Oh, but
you couldn't call a peach of a car like
this Bloody Mary!'

With thanks to https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/OpenBerk/conversations/topics/1004 for saving me typing the whole tale!

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Andrew Upton

It's a wonderful story - but can it be true?

Originally posted on another thread, but it goes to show the story isn't that far fetched...

Humourous anecdote to the thread.... following is an extract from Col. Badcock's book on MT in the EEF which I used in my book "The Benzine Lancers" and worthy of inclusion here I would think....

"We always took great pride in the way Major Haddon, one of our D.A.D.T.’s at G.H.Q., controlled with wonderful accuracy the whereabouts of all and every M.T. vehicle. One day he came into my office with a worried look and explained he had just discovered the existence of a Ford car in a Light Armoured Car unit at Sollum in the Western Desert whose previous existence was completely unknown to him! Enquiries were duly made and resulted in our learning that the O.C. of this particular unit, a versatile Australian, had demanded, bit by bit, various spare parts ostensibly for the cars, etc., already with his unit, until he had amassed sufficient to build a new car!”

One could surmise that said officer was Captain James of the 1st LCP. Rod

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Lancashire Fusilier

Were any armoured cars legitimately turned in to civilian vehicles at the end of the war?

Ken

Ken,
Many thanks for that great story, and I am sure the odd vehicle got ' nicked '.
However, the situation as it related to British armoured cars in 1919 was completely different to the British Military's vast array of other vehicles, and the stark reality was that at the end of WW1 the British Army had precious few armoured cars still in service, and certainly none that could be used as civilian ' Army Surplus '.
Here is an extract, which illustrates that 1919 dire shortage of armoured cars :-
" The depleted 17th ( Armoured Car ) Battalion was in action right up to the time the Armistice took effect but rarely with more than six or seven cars fit for service at any one time ................. The ultimate privilege for the armoured car men came on 6th December 1918 when eight armoured cars escorted the Commanding Officer of 2nd Cavalry Brigade into Cologne to negotiate Allied Control of the City. "
Those few remaining WW1 armoured cars, such as the Austin Model 1918, were kept on active service in Germany, Ireland, Russia, Mesopotamia and the Middle East.
Hence the need in July 1919 for Winston Churchill, the then Secretary of State for War, to rush through the order for 100 new Austin-Peerless Armoured Cars which were urgently needed make up for that dire shortage of armoured cars, with the first batch of the new Austin-Peerless Armoured Cars being delivered in January 1920, all of which were immediately sent to Ireland for internal security duties.
At the end of WW1 the British military had a vast surplus of Lorries, Trucks, Tenders etc. ( the RAF alone was estimated to have some 23,000 assorted vehicles ) with most of those ex-military vehicles having a civilian application. As a result, many of those vehicles, which also included some of the B Type London buses which had been sent to the Western Front in 1914 to be used as troop transports, were brought back to Britain, refurbished and put back into civilian use.
Many ex-military lorries were drafted into civilian service as public transport in Central London to help supplement the shortage of London buses, some 1400 of which had been sent off to the Western Front at the start of WW1 and many did not return.
( see attached photograph ).
Whereas, the British military's armoured cars, which were very few in number, were sent all over the British Empire, primarily to places where civilian unrest was expected, such as Ireland, India and the Middle East, and they continued in military service for many, many more years.
Armoured cars were kept going by being modified, and refurbished, and by utilizing stores of spare parts, and when the spare parts were exhausted, existing armoured cars were cannibalized, until eventually having no further means of keeping these old War Cars on the road, they were scrapped. However, some were successfully kept on the road well into WW2.
For example, some WW1 Rolls-Royce Armoured Cars which began life with the Royal Naval Air Service ( R.N.A.S ) in 1914, had their armoured hulls removed from their original WW1 chassis, and were remounted on ' Fordson ' chassis at the start of WW2, and were still in service with the R.A.F. well into WW2 until being scrapped on Air Ministry instructions in 1944. ( see attached photograph ).
The Austin-Peerless Armoured Cars remained in service for many more years and was used extensively for internal security duties both in Ireland during ' The Troubles ', and also in London during the 1926 General Strike. With several remaining in service with Territorial Units both prior to WW2, as with the the 5th County of London Armoured Car Company, Territorial Force ( Sharpshooters ) with their H.Q. on St.John's Road, London, formed on 29th September 1920 and in June 1922 renamed as the 23rd ( London ) Armoured Car Company, Royal Tank Corps., and into WW2, as with the 1st Derbyshire Yeomany which was still using an Austin-Peerless Armoured Car for Aerodrome defence duties as late as May 1940.
Other Austin Armoured Cars ( Model 1918s ) found their way to the Middle East via Mesopotamia, and when fighting broke out in Waziristan some well worn Austin Armoured Cars Model 1918s were brought in from Mesopotamia. These Austin Armoured Cars, which were still fitted with their original Vickers machine guns, were modified and refurbished and fitted with steel disc wheels and the new Normal Air Pressure ( N.A.P. ) tyres. ( see attached photograph ).
Very few original WW1 armoured cars survive, this being a testimony to their long, long period of service with the British military both at home and overseas.
LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

A WW1 surplus ex-military Leyland A Type Lorry, being used in 1919 as a civilian London bus to supplement the shortage of London buses.



LF




This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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Lancashire Fusilier

A WW1 Rolls-Royce Armoured Car which began life with the Royal Naval Air Service ( R.N.A.S ) in 1914, with its armoured hull having been removed from the original WW1 chassis, and remounted on a ' Fordson ' chassis at the start of WW2, and which was still in service with the R.A.F. well into WW2 until being scrapped on Air Ministry instructions in 1944.

LF

C/o War Cars - D. Fletcher. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier
An Austin Armoured Car ( Model 1918 ) brought in from Mesopotamia, when fighting broke out in Waziristan, still fitted with its original Vickers machine guns, and modified and refurbished by being fitted with steel disc wheels and the then new Normal Air Pressure ( N.A.P. ) tyres.

Also of note, this is the only version of the Austin Armoured Car Model 1918, which was painted with a ' Disruptive ' pattern camouflage paint scheme.


LF



C/o War Cars - D. Fletcher. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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kenf48

LF

Thanks for the information and a great thread - I won't let the facts spoil a good story!

I found your account fascinating and especially liked the picture of the 'No 4 bus' - they seem to have crammed everyone in!

Ken

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Scalyback

Fantastic armoured cars, WW2 vintage for a WW1 cab. It does make you think how the armistice was a 20 year gap. I can clearly see the WW1 cab and shape yet the wheels are clear WW2 vintage.

Mr LF a virtual pint for you, unless you prefer tea.

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patrick Eggs

FANTASTIC ARMOURED CARS

And remember the men of the 17th.Armoured Car Battalion and all the men and Nations who fought in them.

Crimson Rambler.

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Scalyback

In regards to the car spare armoured car being built from spare parts being ordered via the QM. This is why now certain items are "starred" on a QM claim, you have to return the part you want or have a good reason for the replacmeant. On rifles this tends to be the firing pin and a few other bits. Not sure what the starred parts are on motors.

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Lancashire Fusilier

the 'No 4 bus' - they seem to have crammed everyone in!

Ken

Ken,

The conversions made to the ex-WD lorries used as London buses, included adding a set of stairs for easy access and the installation of bus type seats. One of the better conversions being seen on the ex-WD ' AEC ' ( Associated Equipment Company ) Lorries.

AEC being part of the London General Omnibus Company ( L.G.O.C. ) which operated the ' General ' fleet of London buses, and it was mainly the buses belonging to the ' General ' fleet which were sent off to the Western Front as troop transports in 1914. AEC/LGOC had the expertise and means to do a very decent conversion to the ex-WD ' AEC ' Lorries, which included adding equipment such as the staircase and seats normally used on their ' General ' London buses.

Attached are some photos of converted ex-WD ' AEC ' Lorries being used as London buses.

One of the photos, which shows some seated passengers, including a couple of men wearing bowler hats, gives the impression that Londoners were very pleased with and accepting of these converted ex-WD Lorries.

Both these photos were taken outside a large block of Victorian flats known as ' Queen Anne Mansions ' in S.W. London, which was badly damaged in the WW2 Blitz, and I think is now the site of the London Passport Office ?

Regards,

LF

IWM. These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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