Lancashire Fusilier Posted 7 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2013 American troops shown in a period photographic postcard using their Holt Model 75 ' Caterpillar ' Tractor during the Battle of the Marne in 1918. LF This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 7 December , 2013 Share Posted 7 December , 2013 Fascinating subject. I admit to always being particularly drawn to the Holt. I suspect it's down to its very striking presence. I find it utterly incredible that the War Office could put up such a substantial prize to encourage invention and not only have just one entrant but then to reject the one and only prize winner! Here are a couple of fascinating YouTube films on the subject. The first shows the Hornsby and appears to be a British made film but with German subtitles? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TGgLrS9Sfs Some of the comments make interesting reading in the debate about who invented the caterpillar track first. The second film shows a replica of what is claimed to be the very first use of such track, by an American inventor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYNYgZXZwho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 7 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2013 David, Two great films, the first with the German sub-titles shows David Roberts, the Managing Director and Chief Engineer of Richard Hornsby and Sons. Ltd. of Grantham, Lincolnshire demonstrating their smaller ' tracked ' tractor, and the larger ' tracked ' tractor is their other model. The film clip, is designed to also show how much better their tractors cope with wet farm land as opposed to horse-drawn equipment, and was most certainly filmed in and around Grantham. The second American film shows a replica of Benjamin Holt's original ' Caterpillar ' Tractor, with the wooden tracks. Very interesting film clips, and thanks for posting them. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 7 December , 2013 Share Posted 7 December , 2013 Here's another selection I've turned up - the third is particularly interesting as I've not seen it before and have no idea what is being demonstrated. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/ww1-type-tractor/query/tractors http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-forerunner-of-the-tanks-caterpillar-tractor/query/tractors http://www.britishpathe.com/video/horseless-artillery/query/tractors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 7 December , 2013 Share Posted 7 December , 2013 Not wishing to highjack or deflect the thread, on the subject of early crawler-tracked vehicles by Hornsby, I've been put onto this, the Hornsby Steam tractor of 1910, made for a company in the wilds of Canada where wood and steam were the only fuel source. http://www.hornsbycrawler.org/index.php/Main/History Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 7 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2013 early crawler-tracked vehicles by Hornsby, I've been put onto this, the Hornsby Steam tractor of 1910, made for a company in the wilds of Canada where wood and steam were the only fuel source. David, More excellent photos of Hornsby's early tracked steam-powered tractors, the time frame is correct, as for the tractors to be in the Yukon in 1910, they were probably made in Grantham in 1909 or a little earlier. I do not know the exact date that Hornsby sold their patent to Holt, it was probably sometime in 1911. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSM Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Good to be back after a short absence having a large nasty removed form the base of the spine. All very educational. Good to see the thread thriving in its own right and if I may I will add a couple of comments. First off, those 2 really nice images from LF (post 899) - the RC prefix (including RA and RL -Ambulances & Lorries) were officially used on Red Cross vehicles attached to and in direct support of the "Military" etc. Apart from my own research you will find same in Michael's Youngs book on the ASC. Interestintg bits from the contributors re the Hornsby & Holt. Easy to be wise in hindsight but I believe the Americans won the Lotto with the purchase of that patent. We sent a Captain to Aldershot in 1908 to report back to the Military Board in Australia re all matters then current re MT in the British army. I have a copy of said report including an in depth study of the Hornsby which he recommended the locals should buy. Also didn't happen. He actually drove every vehicle he inspected with full co-operation of the ASC. Speakig of out of the ordinary markings on Military MT....I recently came across the attached image which is a type or style I had not seen before. Regards.... Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Rod, Good to see you back, and pleased to hear you are getting over your ' nasty ', you were certainly conspicuous by your absence. I had not seen a ' HQ/DIV ' vehicle marking before, so something to look out for. With regard to Hornsby's ' tracked ' Tractor, it is hard to understand why the Top Brass both in Britain and Australia failed to see the potential of Hornsby's invention, Benjamin Holt was certainly astute enough to see that potential and snap up their patent, one of the best decisions Mr. Holt ever made, was to make that trip to Grantham. Attached is a photo of a Vauxhall car displaying the ' RC ' vehicle registration code, which is not often seen. The vehicle is carrying civilians, being driven by the military, with the civilians having their papers checked by a Military Policeman, the photo also shows some nice details of the MP's kit. The MP looks to be armed with an automatic pistol, rather than a revolver, probably a Colt Model 1911. The photo, was taken in the town of Arras on 13th September, 1917. Regards, LF IWMQ2797 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 RC not Red Cross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 RC not Red Cross? Correct, ' RC ' being the code for vehicles used by the Red Cross, I assume the civilians shown in post #932 were from the Red Cross, and the presence of the Military Policeman and the military driver suggests they may have possibly been Red Cross officials visiting a German P.O.W. Camp/Compound to take details of prisoners or check on the prisoners. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 May have posted it before but there's a photo of a Holt being used post-war in Croydon to run over German stahlhelms as a base layer for a new road, will get it resized and post it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 May have posted it before but there's a photo of a Holt being used post-war in Croydon to run over German stahlhelms as a base layer for a new road, will get it resized and post it up RobL, No, not seen seen that photo on here before, sounds very interesting. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Here we go - note the incorrect caption of it being a 'prosy old steam-roller', which it is in fact a modern petrol engined tracked tractor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Here we go - note the incorrect caption of it being a 'prosy old steam-roller', which it is in fact a modern petrol engined tracked tractor! Great photo, and that road in Croydon is probably still there with all those German WW1 helmets under it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Incredible to think that someone has had to gather that lot up, pack them and ship them by the boat load, to then unload the cargo and transport it to Croyden. Then the crates have to be unpacked and the helmets laid out just so that a tracked vehicle can run over them and crush them flat enough to let someone then build a road surface over them. You would have thought someone out there might have suggested melting them down would have had greater long-term value? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Incredible to think that someone has had to gather that lot up, pack them and ship them by the boat load, to then unload the cargo and transport it to Croyden. Then the crates have to be unpacked and the helmets laid out just so that a tracked vehicle can run over them and crush them flat enough to let someone then build a road surface over them. You would have thought someone out there might have suggested melting them down would have had greater long-term value? David David, If I may be permitted to digress just for a moment, but still linked to RobL's post, if you thought that took some planning, take a look at the massive pyramid constructed from some 12,000 captured German Pickelhaube helmets, it being the centrepiece of an American War Loan Exhibition held in New York in 1918. LF 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 I have actually see this before. Difference is, it's quite a work of art, don't you think? Where in the world did all those helmets end up I wonder? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 I have actually see this before. Difference is, it's quite a work of art, don't you think? Where in the world did all those helmets end up I wonder? David Today, that pyramid would be worth some 4 million pounds. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 This one has me stumped. I can't make my mind up if it is a drawing or a photo. It is captioned as a Burford Halftrack AA. Any one seen a photo in action or with a WD number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2013 It is captioned as a Burford Halftrack AA. Any one seen a photo in action or with a WD number? johnboy, The Burford Halftrack certainly existed ( photo attached ), they were an experimental armoured vehicle from the mid-1920's, so post WW1, not sure if they ever saw service in WW2 ? LF This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 8 December , 2013 Share Posted 8 December , 2013 Apart from the use of rubber tracks, they don't seem to have moved on much post war. Look at the drivers seat! It seems the the springs have been reversed and have not changed much since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 9 December , 2013 Share Posted 9 December , 2013 I have actually see this before. Difference is, it's quite a work of art, don't you think? Where in the world did all those helmets end up I wonder? I believe they were eventually given away to those who had purchased a certain value of War Loans, and as a result are probably the source of most picklehaubes available to collectors in the US today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 9 December , 2013 Share Posted 9 December , 2013 Out of interest, has anyone got a decent picture of what they used to top-off that pyramid of helmets, the whole thing looks very 'New World Orderish' to me? That Bulford is certainly post war but does in fact begin to demonstrate the quite rapid development in AFV's which took place after the war, based on the earlier experiences. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 9 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2013 The 3rd hand-coloured photograph from the ' Dennis ' 1913 Motor Fire Engine Catalogue - The Reigate Borough Fire Brigade's Fire Engine No.1A. LF This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 9 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2013 RA and RL -Ambulances & Lorries) This photograph of a VAD ( Voluntary Aid Detachment ) Ambulance is interesting both from the ' RA ' Vehicle Registration Code shown on the ambulance, and also because it shows the 2 senior VAD Officers of the VAD Unit in Etaples, both women are in uniform and both uniforms have a cuff rank. This is the first photograph I have seen showing VAD senior rank uniforms, the photogrpah was taken on 27th June, 1917 in Etaples. LF IWMQ2443 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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