WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[GRANVILLE]

I wrote to Leo via a PM on the 2nd Dec but have had no reply which is quite unusual.

[Psjones]

I hope no one minds me posting this here, a great thread,  Its a picture of a friends Showman's road locomotive, Burrell 2877 "His Majesty" on Salisbury plane during the Great War. The owner, Charles Heal of Bedminster, Bristol was a great patriot and had his engine put to work "OHMS" (On His Majesty's service)  with the front dynamo removed. The engine went on to remain with the family firm until the late 1950's when it was sold into preservation. It's currently having a major overhaul and should hopefully be out and about soon 

[BIFFO]

Apart from ww1 my other BIG thing  photographing showman's I have 100s,I have never seen his majesty ,what region does he show,I go all around the midlands and of course gdsr

nice engine even nicer story

[david murdoch]

Rolls Royce armoured cars on the road in Mesopotamia. This is from an original negative that I have, so most likely taken by my grandfather. The cars belonging to 8th L.A.M.B. but no sign of numbers or  car names in the usual locations. Note centre car has turret extension fitted in France after MGC motors took these cars over from RNAS. Not sure what they are looking at - maybe a large column of Turkish prisoners heading in the other direction, or possibly cavalry.

[Psjones]

1 hour ago, BIFFO said:

Apart from ww1 my other BIG thing  photographing showman's I have 100s,I have never seen his majesty ,what region does he show,I go all around the midlands and of course gdsr

nice engine even nicer story

 

She was in the museum of Country life in Deavon for quite a few years, My friend bought her in 2011 and she went to GDSF 2011 & 2012, went in for an overhaul in 2013 and its taken a lot longer than expected, as all of these things tend to. She's back in somerset & Bristol area. hope she will back at GDSF in 2017! 

Edited 14 December , 2016 by Psjones

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Speaking of Coventry Museums, I spotted this restored 1916 Maudslay a week back at the Coventry Transport Museum.

It took five years of work to restore it by the "Friends" of the museum.

 

[GWF1967]

17 minutes ago, Kitchener's Bugle said:

Speaking of Coventry Museums, I spotted this restored 1916 Maudslay a week back at the Coventry Transport Museum.

It took five years of work to restore it by the "Friends" of the museum.

 

Very nice. 

[MBrockway]

Again apologies if this card has already been posted here - searched through using various obvious terms with no hits, but with 227 pages, I still may have missed it!

 

 

 

The description calls it "pendrail" in error for "pedrail" ...

 

I assume it's Mechanical Transport Section of the ASC.

 

It's from the 25 card set on Army Life produced by Will's Scissors cigarettes.

 

New York Public Library Digital Collection

 

Thumbnails of the complete set are here

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 26 December , 2016 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

Another card from the NYPL collection ...

 

This one is from a 50 card set Britain's Defenders also by Wills.

 

 

The page for this card here.

 

Thumbnails of the complete set here

 

 

Edited 26 December , 2016 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

On 27/01/2015 at 13:45, Lancashire Fusilier said:

Foden WW1 Steam Wagons

 

Edwin Foden (1841-1911), was born on 5 August 1841 in Smallwood, near Sandbach, Cheshire, the son of the local Grocer. He left school at thirteen, and after two years as a village post-boy he took up an apprenticeship with the agricultural engineering firm of Plant & Hancock at Elworth, near Sandbach, Cheshire. To widen his engineering experience Edwin Foden took an Apprenticeship at the Crewe railway workshops and at another workshop in nearby Kidsgrove before returning to Elworth, where by the age of nineteen he was shop foreman. At age 25, he went into partnership with his old employer George Hancock to form Hancock & Foden. In 1870 Foden's partner, George Hancock retired, and Foden took sole control of the company and renamed the firm Edwin Foden & Sons, and 1882 Edwin Foden designed his first steam tractor.

In 1887 the company was renamed Edwin Foden Sons and Co Ltd. The company produced large industrial engines, as well as small stationary steam engines and agricultural traction engines.

In 1900 the first Foden ' Overtype ' steam wagon was produced, which carried its payload rather than pulling it as the traction engine did. It was this Foden ' Overtype ' Steam Wagon which was later to prove so successful with the British Army during WW1.

1901 To raise capital a new company was formed, Fodens Ltd, with Edwin as managing director and a business colleague, Cecil Brunner, as chairman.

Edwin Foden died on 31st August 1911, following his death, his sons William and Edwin Richard ran Fodens.

At the start of WW1, Fodens provided the War Department with a selection of Foden Steam Wagons and Trailers. The Army were very impressed with the Foden Steam Wagons and several large WD orders followed, with Fodens switching their entire production to wartime WD Steam Wagon orders.

Typically, the Foden steam Wagons supplied to the War Department were Foden's ' Overtype ' Wagons where the engine is mounted over a horizontal boiler. The Army's Foden Steam Wagons required both a Driver and a Fireman whose job it was to keep the coal fired boiler's firebox constantly filled with coal.

Another ideal wartime use for the Foden Steam Wagons was their being fitted with ' Thresh ' Disinfectors which utilized steam from the Foden Steam Wagon's engine to pipe hot steam into the ' Thresh ' sealed chambers containing the lice infected soldier's uniforms and blankets, with the hot steam killing the lice.

These Foden Delousing Wagons were critical in dealing with the lice infestations commonplace in the trenches on the Western Front, with the Army deploying some 100 Foden Delousing Wagons.

LF

Pre-WW1 versions of Foden's Steam Wagon.

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

 

 

 

Are Pals aware that the Foden archives are in the Cheshire Record Office including this interesting looking volume ...

 

Reference	DFO 2944/2/2
Title	Trailer build records: Register of chassis numbers of wagons sent to depots (including to War Office)
Date	July 1938
Description	A list of War Dept Depots and the Chassis numbers sent to each depot. The depots are indexed alphabetically. This is merged with an alphabetic list of Foden's suppliers and detailing parts returned by Fodens their suppliers. [The book appears to have had two distinct uses.]
Extent	1 Volume

 

CALM Catalogue entry here

 

The complete Foden archive presented as a CALM Catalogue hierarchy is here

 

Mark

 

 

 

Edited 28 December , 2016 by MBrockway

[BSM]

Obviously the Americans didn't miss much given the amount of material that seems to pop up in their various repositories but either way very interesting MT Heritage info. Enjoyed the read. Thanks for posting and have a great New Year etc. Has anyone heard anything regarding LF's welfare?? Cheers.... Rod

[Modelmaker]

I was looking again at the Elephant Legs [design ??].

I may be wrong but there is an inner frame, with an upper channel section and lower channel section. The upper channel would appear to slide back and forth, attached to it were the "legs", the lower channel was in place so as the legs could not swing inwards....the ends appear to have been bent. #5663, there appears to be a drive wheel of sorts or cog arrangement that would move the upper channel [forward].....so the legs would contact an area ahead of the "vehicle". Then basically the machine was hauled along, with the legs giving some support. I can only guess as this seems the most logical solution.....

 

George. 

[daggers]

Reference #5661 and LF's earlier post about Fodens.  He mentioned a Cecil Brunner as chairman of Foden's company.  I wonder if this was the Captain Cecil Heywood Brunner, 3rd West Lancs RFA TF, who died of wounds in October 1917, is listed by CWGC and commemorated in Liverpool Magistrates' Court, among other places.

 

D

[MBrockway]

The Brunner family were prominent in the Cheshire chemicals industry, the firm becoming part of ICI in, IIRC, the 1920's and then to be divested out as Brunner Mond& Co Ltd as ICI began to disintegrate in the 1990's (don't get me going on that debacle!).

 

Cecil Brunner is bound to be connected there.

 

Mark

 

[daggers]

Thanks, Mark.  That fits in with my guesswork.

 

D

[Modelmaker]

On 11/22/2016 at 14:05, Lancashire Fusilier said:

 

David,

 

Yes, they certainly look to be steering cables.

It appears that the ultimate problem which lead to the dual-machine project being abandoned, was the inability to coordinate the forward and reverse gears on both vehicles.

 

Regards,

LF

Having had another re-visit to this topic, I cannot be sure about the cables being part of the steering....there is a steering wheel clearly seen in 5625, also the sketch 5622 shows a rod running from the wheel to quadrant to the rear of the front axle.....the quadrant has rods attached to operate the steering link. The way the cables run over the rear of the machine is confusing however.......COULD this be a method of raising the front to clear an obstacle ??????

 

Very curious.

 

George.

[MBrockway]

On 05/01/2017 at 14:32, daggers said:

Reference #5661 and LF's earlier post about Fodens.  He mentioned a Cecil Brunner as chairman of Foden's company.  I wonder if this was the Captain Cecil Heywood Brunner, 3rd West Lancs RFA TF, who died of wounds in October 1917, is listed by CWGC and commemorated in Liverpool Magistrates' Court, among other places.

D

 

On 05/01/2017 at 15:05, MBrockway said:

The Brunner family were prominent in the Cheshire chemicals industry, the firm becoming part of ICI in, IIRC, the 1920's and then to be divested out as Brunner Mond& Co Ltd as ICI began to disintegrate in the 1990's (don't get me going on that debacle!).

 

Cecil Brunner is bound to be connected there.

Mark

 

On 05/01/2017 at 18:51, daggers said:

Thanks, Mark.  That fits in with my guesswork.

D

 

Daggers,

I'm never very comfortable with guesswork, so I thought I'd best chase all this through

 

Cecil Heywood BRUNNER was indeed part of the Brunner chemical industry family.

 

The branch that established Brunner Mond in Northwich springs from his uncle, Sir John Tomlinson BRUNNER.  His eldest uncle, Henry BRUNNER was prominent in the chemical industry in the Widnes area.  His father, Joseph Paul BRUNNER was achemical broker in the Toxteth area of Liverpool.

 

Here's their genealogy starting from Cecil's grandfather, Rev John BRUNNER, who was a Swiss Lutheran minister, who ran a school in Everton.

 

I hope it makes sense!

 

BRUNNER, Rev John (1800-1884). Lutheran minister & schoolteacher, Everton. Born Switzerland.
m. CURPHEY, Margaret (?1814?-?1847?)
[1841: 21 Church Street, Everton, Liverpool]
[1843: 31 Church Street, Everton, Liverpool - could be an error for #21]
[1851: 21 Church Street, Everton, Liverpool]
[later: Parkfield Gardens and Parkfield Road, Aigburth]

 

-BRUNNER, Catherine/Catharine (~1836-??)
 marriage & issue not researched. Absent from household in 1851 census, so *may* have died young, but no proof of this found.

 

-BRUNNER, Henry (1838-1916).  Chemical Manufacturer.
 m. (1868) McCLELLAN, Sarah Jane (~1838-?)
 issue not researched
[1870: 118 Cliff House, Mill Brow, Widnes]
[1884: Appleton, Widnes, Lancs.]

 

-BRUNNER, Sarah Alicia (~1838-?)
 marriage & issue not researched

 

-BRUNNER, Sir John Tomlinson (1842-1919). Founder of Brunner Mond & Co Ltd. Alkali Manufacturer. Local MP.

Widnes, then Winnington, Northwich.
 m.#1 (1864) DAVIES, Salome (d.1874)
 -- BRUNNER, John Fowler Leece (1865-1929). Dirctor of Brunner Mond. Local MP.
 -- BRUNNER, Sidney Herbert (1867-1890). Drowned in Lake Como on 08 Sep 1890 while rescuing his elder brother.
 -- BRUNNER, Grace (1869-1940). M. (1890) BUCKLEY, Thomas
 -- BRUNNER, Harold Roscoe (1871-1926). Death by suicide.
 -- BRUNNER, Mabel Alicia (1872-1949). M. (1894) LOWE, Henry Parker
 -- BRUNNER, Hilda (1874-1966). M. (1897) DILLON, Visct. Arthur
 m.#2 (1875) WYMAN, Jane (~1838-1910)
 -- BRUNNER, Sybil (1877-1918)
 -- BRUNNER, Maud Mary (1879-1965). M. (1903) GOLD, Major Guy
 -- BRUNNER, Ethel Jane (1881-1931). M. (1903) BLYTH, Audley
[1871: 4 Kaludah Terrace, Widnes Road, Widnes]
[1884, 1891: Winnington Old Hall, Northwich, Chehsire]

 

-BRUNNER, Joseph Paul (1844-1892). Chemical Broker.  Toxteth, Walton, Bootle.
 m.#1 (1872) CHAPMAN, Louise
 -- BRUNNER, Cecil Heywood (1873-1917). DoW 25 Oct 1917 at No 61 CCS, France. RFA.
    m. MUSPRATT, Ricarda Molesworth (1886-1976). The Muspratts were another of the Widnes chemical industry

dynasties.
    --BRUNNER, Clive M (1910-??)
    --BRUNNER, Veronica M (1911-1991)
 -- BRUNNER, Kate (1875-1956)
 -- BRUNNER, Stanley (1877-1931)
 -- BRUNNER, May (1879-??)
 -- BRUNNER, Clara (1881-1947)
 -- BRUNNER, Nora (1883-??)
[1881: 21 Breeze Hill, Walton]
[1884: St Michael's Hamlet, Toxteth, Liverpool]
[1891: The Knoll, Aigburth Drive, Toxteth Park, Liverpool]

 

 

 

 

 

Roscoe Brunner and Cecil Brunner (cousins) both served in the 1890's and 1900's in the 6th Lancashire Artillery Volunteers in Liverpool, though their service only overlapped by a week or two.

 

Cecil Heywood BRUNNER served for over ten years reaching Captain ...

 

1899
VOLUNTEER CORPS - ARTILLERY.
6th Lancashire, Cecil Heywood BRUNNER, Gent, to be Second Lieutenant (Supernumerary). Dated 26th July 1899.
LG Issue 27102, 25 Jul 1899, p.4586
 

1901
VOLUNTEER CORPS - ARTILLERY
6th Lancashire,
..
The undermentioned Second Lieutenants to be Lieutenants :-
C.H. BRUNNER.  Dated 7th December, 1901
..
LG Issue 27383, 06 Dec 1901, p.8645

 

1902
01 Jan - 6th Lancashire artillery volunteers assigned to Royal Garrison Artillery

 

1902
VOLUNTEER CORPS - ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY (VOLUNTEERS)
6th Lancashire, The undermentioned Lieutenants to be Captains :-
..
C.H. BRUNNER.  Dated 16th July, 1902
LG Issue 27454, 15 Jul 1902, p.4515
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27454/page/4515

1908
TERRITORIAL FORCE - ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY
12th Lancashire Battery, 3rd West Lancashire Brigade;
the undermentioned officers, from the 6th Lancashire Royal Garrison Artillery (Volunteers), are appointed to the battery, with rank and precedence as in the Volunteer Force.  Dated 1st April 1908 :-
..
Captain Cecil Heywood BRUNNER.
..
LG Issue 28193, 06 Nov 1908, p.8032
 

1909
Captain in RFA (TF), 12th Lancashire Battery, 3rd West Lancashire Brigade;
Holer of Certificate of Proficiency
Passed prescribed examination in Artillery
Source: 1909 Hart's Annual Army List
 

1910
TERRITORIAL FORCE - ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY
3rd West Lancashire Brigade;
Captain Cecil H. BRUNNER resigns his commission.  Dated 29th January, 1910
LG Issue 28339, 15 Feb 1910, p.1127
 

 

His cousin Harold Roscoe BRUNNER's career in the artillery volunteers was shorter ...

 

1895
VOLUNTEER CORPS - ARTILLERY.
6th Lancashire, Harold Roscoe BRUNNER, Gent, to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 27th March 1899.
LG Issue 26610, 25 Mar 1895, p.1869
 

1899
VOLUNTEER CORPS - ARTILLERY
6th Lancashire, Second Lieutenant H.R. BRUNNER to be Lieutenant.  Dated 15th March 1899
LG Issue 27062, 14 Mar 1899, p.1759
 

VOLUNTEER CORPS - ARTILLERY
6th Lancashire, Lieutenant H.R. BRUNNER resigns his Commission.  Dated 16th August 1899
LG Issue 27108, 15 Aug 1899, p.5124
 

 

Henry Brunner, their uncle, eldest brother of both their fathers, served in the Rifle Volunteers.

 

There are LG entries for him promoted Captain in 47th Lancashire RVC in 1872 and Honorary Major in 2nd VB, the Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment) in 1887.  I have not undertaken a comprehensive search for his further rifle volunteer history.  The Brunner and Pilkington families are both represented in the officer cadre of this corps.

 

47th Lancashire RVC was raised in 1860 in St HELENS.  It was amalgamated with 48th Lancs RVC (formed in PRESCOT) in March 1860 to become 21st Lancashire RVC.  It was designated 2nd VB of the South Lancashire Regt in 1886 and transferred to the TF as 5th Bn., South Lancs in 1908.

 

I hope all this is useful additional material for your researches on Cecil Heywood BRUNNER.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

 

[daggers]

Mark

Many thanks for a most painstaking piece of research.  I had some material from Dick Flory of this forum but you have added a great deal.

There was a portrait of C.H. Brunner in the magistrates' rooms at the old court building but since they have moved I do not know its fate.

Here is a very brief summary of what I had for his entry in the booklet for the Liverpool Cricket and (Rugby) Football Clubs:

LCC member.  Berkhamstead Collegiate School [BCS mem. website]. Also on Liverpool Exchange Newsroom and Liverpool University Memorials.  

LG: 1/1/15 to be Capt. [temp]14/12/14 in 7th KLR.  LG: 5/3/15 from 7th KLR to 3rd West Lancs Brigade, RFA (TF).  Magistrate for City of Liverpool - article in Liverpool Magistrates’ Bulletin.  Also remembered on the memorial in St. Anne’s Church, Aigburth.

 

 

 

FLORY:  Educated at the University of Liverpool.  Joined the 3rd West Lancashire Brigade in 1899.  Served in the South African War with the Imperial Yeomanry where he was twice wounded.  Retired from the Brigade in 1908.  Rejoined the 3rd West Lancashire Brigade as a Captain at the beginning of the Great War.  Went to France with the 57th Divisional Ammunition Column, RFA

 

Died of wounds at Passchendaele on 25 October 1917.

 

 

 

 

Many thanks again for your efforts,

 

Daggers

 

 

 

D

Edited 1 February , 2017 by daggers

[pete-c]

The French manufacturer Latil does not seem to have featured much (if at all) in this section of the Forum.  Therefore, how about this image of a Gallic 'heavy'.

 

Going back a couple of years, it may well be this make that the toy in post #3484 is trying to represent.

[pete-c]

More of the same make.  A line up of brand new artillery tractors.

[Andrew Upton]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2015 at 19:12, GRANVILLE said:

Not wanting to detract from this exceptional thread, but these military vehicles were in a collection of train items I've recently bought. ANyone want to hazzard a guess at what make and age they are and come to that, what the cable lorry represents.

David

 

 

2 hours ago, pete-c said:

The French manufacturer Latil does not seem to have featured much (if at all) in this section of the Forum.  Therefore, how about this image of a Gallic 'heavy'.

 

Going back a couple of years, it may well be this make that the toy in post #3484 is trying to represent.

 

For anyone else not wanting to plough back through the thread!

[pete-c]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 

For anyone else not wanting to plough back through the thread!

 

Whoops.  My apologies.

[pete-c]

Following some more research, I believe I may be wrong in identifying these vehicles as Latils.   They are more likely to be Renault Type EG.  

 

Attached is an image of a Latil TAR.

[Chasemuseum]

Hi,

I think that this is the appropriate thread, my apologies in advance if this is the wrong place.

 

Yesterday was the 3rd day of the clearance auction of the Cowra Military and Rail Museum at Cowra in country NSW Australia. A bit of an unknown place with the main claim to fame being the location of a mass break-out by Japanese POWs during WW2 with a very high loss of life amongst the POW.

 

The museum did not have a lot of WW1 material other than a Four Wheel Drive truck. I was not at the auction but consider that it went cheaply at AUD$14,000 +12.5% commission. That about GBP8,500 + 12.5%.

 

The vehicle is mechanically fairly complete, the engine was missing the carburettor.  It went through a major restoration from the previous owner in Western Australia about 1990. It needed cosmetic work, building a new tray, providing headlights and driving lights, a canopy etc. Good luck to the new owner.

Cheers

Ross T

.

[Chasemuseum]

Not so cheap. The auction house has updated the sale prices, actual price was AUD$75,000 + commission. That is GBP45,600 ++