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WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards


Lancashire Fusilier

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You are quite right, LF. For example, when 98th AA Section was moved from Guvesne to the Struma valley in 1918 they found their GS lorries were quite unsuitable for the primitive roads. The Diary records that they managed to wangle some mules and found them a more reliable way of moving supplies. We know that bringing the injured to the medical services on the Doiran front required mules and horses so it isn't hard to imagine that supplies and munitions were brought up in a similar fashion.

Keith

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Lancashire Fusilier

The Diary records that they managed to wangle some mules and found them a more reliable way of moving supplies. We know that bringing the injured to the medical services on the Doiran front required mules and horses so it isn't hard to imagine that supplies and munitions were brought up in a similar fashion.

Keith,

This photograph shows casualties from the 77th Brigade being brought to a Dressing Station by mule-borne ' Cacholet ' during the Salonika Campaign 1916.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Hi

Anyone seen/have images of the 'canvas case' used to carry cloth signalling strips on horses. These are mentioned in Air/Cavalry support instructions for 35 Sqn. RFC, during 1917. The Fitter and Rigger would each carry a 'canvas case' with a cloth Landing 'T' in on their horses while their, cavalry supplied, horse holders would each carry a 'canvas case' containing 10 cloth signalling strips (these strips would probably be 9 feet by 9 inches). I am presuming that they were probably a 'standard' canvas case.

Mike

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Lancashire Fusilier

Stretcher cases being transferred to mule-drawn ' Travois ' for journey to a Field Ambulance Station in Salonika, 1916.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Would this kind of thing have been what the War Diaries refer to as "Pack Wireless", LF?

Keith,

Here are the photographs showing the ' Pack Wireless ' carried by pack horse, with the first photograph showing the complete Wireless Transmitter and it's power unit. The Transmitter is marked ' M.W.T. Co. Ltd. ' for the Marconi Wireless & Telegraph Co. Ltd., founded in 1897 by Italian inventor Guglielmo Marconi ( 25 April 1874 - 20 July 1937 ).

This first photograph, clearly shows the tubular frame lined with padding to protect the pack horse's back, which is carrying the petrol generator and alternator which powered the wireless transmitter.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

The Pack Wireless' mast carried in sections.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Pack horse mounted ' Pack Wireless ' equipment.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Pack horse mounted ' Pack Wireless ' equipment.



LF





This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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Marvellous images, LF. I don't know how you come with all this stuff!

Keith

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This may or may not fall into this topic so feel free to delete it if you think it's straying, LF. Something that I haven't been able to pin down is a system used in Salonika - and presumably elsewhere - by the AA Sections to communicate with passing planes, particularly those chasing enemy aircraft. The Diaries refer to laying something out to indicate to allied scouts the last known direction of an enemy plane to assist in its pursuit. I'd guess that this is a giant arrow on some kind of a background so that it shows up at 15,000 feet. Has anyone found anything like this in a picture?

Keith

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This may or may not fall into this topic so feel free to delete it if you think it's straying, LF. Something that I haven't been able to pin down is a system used in Salonika - and presumably elsewhere - by the AA Sections to communicate with passing planes, particularly those chasing enemy aircraft. The Diaries refer to laying something out to indicate to allied scouts the last known direction of an enemy plane to assist in its pursuit. I'd guess that this is a giant arrow on some kind of a background so that it shows up at 15,000 feet. Has anyone found anything like this in a picture?

Keith

Hi

I shall go into detail later, but I presume you are thinking of something like this:

post-57218-0-45774600-1459963953_thumb.j

Mike

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Great stuff! Thank you very much!

Keith

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Lancashire Fusilier

I shall go into detail later, but I presume you are thinking of something like this:

Mike,

Excellent information, I did not know those signals even existed.

Looking forward to any other details.

Regards,

LF

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Hi

I shall go into detail later, but I presume you are thinking of something like this:

attachicon.gifWW1RFCgrdsigad002.jpg

Mike

Hi

This particular drawing is from a document (received by 14th Wing RFC) dated 6th August 1917 and is in TNA AIR 1/1577/204/80/98. Titled 'Ground Signal Station' it states the location as:

"...at S.8.b.25, one mile south-west of NIEUPORT, for the purpose of signalling to machines on patrol information on the position and movement of E.A. sighted from the ground and reported by wireless. This station is located in approximately the centre of the Army Front and the ground signals have been constructed sufficiently large to provide their being seen by patrols in any position on the Army Front within five miles of the line."

Sadly it does not give exact dimensions, although the station was in direct communication with the A.A. Group and the Wireless Intercepting Station.

The height of the E.A. was indicated by the bars; No Bar - Below 5,000 ft., One Bar - Above 5,000., below 10,000 ft., Two Bars - Above 10,000 ft., below 15,000 ft., Three Bars - Above 15,000 ft.

If there is interest I will continue with detail on this and other systems tomorrow.

Mike

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Yes, please!

Keith

Hi

The arrangements for signalling were as follows:

"An oblong grid of white American cloth containing three squares laid parallel to the Line. These squares represent three sectors of the enemy area on area on the Army Front. The presence of E.A. carrying out artillery work in any one of these sectors when intercepted by the Wireless Intercepting Station will be indicated to patrols by the placing of a white disc in the square representing that sector."

The information to locate the German Artillery machines was coming from 'SIGINT' (more information later).

The white arrow:

"...will be pointed so as to give direction on to any enemy machine which is directly observed from the station or from one of the Anti-Aircraft batteries in direct communication with the station."

This shows that visual reports were also used. There is some other information reference visual reports from AA batteries contained in the Army Records Society book 'The British Army and Signals Intelligence During the First World War' edited by John Ferris, page 94, which is part of a transcript of a 22 June 1917 document 'Co-operation of Wireless Intelligence, A.A., R.F.C.', this mentions that when an AA battery sees a hostile machine the signals used consist of:

"(i) A white circle 17 yards in diameter. (ii) A white arrow 17 yards long and 3 ft. 6'' wide. (iii) A series of white strips 10 yards long and 3ft. 6" wide."

To use the system:

"The arrow is laid across the circle and gives direction of hostile machine. The white strips indicate height - each strip signifying 2000 feet."

This document also gives the average 'Speed of Warning' that the whole system achieved at the time:

"The average time that elapses between a hostile machine starting work and our machines leaving the ground is 30-40 minutes."

This was made up of; Enemy machine starts work and Y or Z bearing obtained 20-30 minutes. Bearing obtained and Information received from AA 5 minutes. Information received from AA and XI wing warned 1-2 minutes. XXI Wing warned and machines leave ground 5 minutes.

A series of systems were used for Home Defence in UK as well. The French would have used similar systems and may have well supplied the system used in Salonika.

Mike

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So the indicator was in two parts? One is the cloth with three squares and the second is the arrow with its associated height bars? I don't think the first was used by the AA Sections at Salonika as those recording this type of thing were a long way back from the front lines. It seems that pilots frequently did not spot enemy planes. The AA gunners would fire what they record as "directory rounds" to attract their attention. Whether that means they wanted the plane to fly over their position and read the arrow's indication or if the directory rounds pointed the plane in the right direction I'm not sure. Only a couple of rounds were normally fired for this purpose so they couldn't lead the pilot towards the enemy's path.

Keith

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Lancashire Fusilier

Here are some additional photographs of the seemingly ubiquitous Marconi ' Pack Wireless ', with the first photograph showing the Pack Wireless in use by British troops in German East Africa.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

The Pack Wireless in use with Australian Troops.

LF

AWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

The ' Pack Wireless ' in use in Mesopotamia, 1917.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Post 4829

an excellent photo with some 03 pattern equipment on show, the large haversacks look splendid

Keep the pictures coming

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So the indicator was in two parts? One is the cloth with three squares and the second is the arrow with its associated height bars? I don't think the first was used by the AA Sections at Salonika as those recording this type of thing were a long way back from the front lines. It seems that pilots frequently did not spot enemy planes. The AA gunners would fire what they record as "directory rounds" to attract their attention. Whether that means they wanted the plane to fly over their position and read the arrow's indication or if the directory rounds pointed the plane in the right direction I'm not sure. Only a couple of rounds were normally fired for this purpose so they couldn't lead the pilot towards the enemy's path.

Keith

Hi

Yes it was.

The Air Defence in Britain itself shows a variety of systems being used at different times. According to Cole & Cheesman in 'The Air Defence of Britain 1914-1918', page 100, in mid 1915:

"...Capt. Murray Sueter at the Admiralty Air Department was advocating adoption of a more primitive French system using a gigantic arrow, 200 yards long and 50 yards wide made up of fabric strips, to point in the direction of the enemy. As more up-to-date information was received, the arrow's bearing was laboriously altered."

Also:

"In July 1916 directional signals based on a clock face, with the hour hand pointing to the reported direction of enemy aircraft, were in use near the North Foreland lighthouse."

In the Summer of 1916, by RNAS, and November 1916, by RFC, the Ingram system was adopted, this was based on a large 'T':

"...its head measuring 20 ft by 4 ft and the tail 40 ft by 4 ft. Up to three 8-ft diameter discs could be placed adjacently in 40 different positions, each conveying a specific message. For example there were patterns instructing pilots to search for enemy aircraft in 25 defined locations in southeast England and adjacent sea areas. The signals were designed to be legible from heights up to 14,000 ft, but in exceptionally clear weather they could be read from about 17,000 ft."

These systems were located on the air defence airfields. However, Raymond H. Fredette in 'The First Battle of Britain 1917/18', Cassell, 1966, pages 91-92, mentions that the 'Ingram system was replaced by:

"...white arrows permanently mounted at widely scattered points. The pointers were large enough to be seen from as high as 17,000 feet on a clear day. The arrows were to be pointed in the general direction of the raiders for as long as they remained over England."

This appears to describe the pre-Ingram system mentioned in Cole and Cheesman. Fredette's description of the Ingram system is also slightly odd, describing it consisting of:

"...a code of dots and dashes communicated by large white panels. Considerable time was required to lay out the cumbersome signals, and the pilots themselves had some difficulty reading them."

Unfortunately these comments are not sourced and as it is a book written in 1966 it was not information from the archives.

The Ingram system is shown below. Left is 'Search for HA in direction of Lullingstone' Right 'Search for HA in direction of Colbart Light Vessel'.

post-57218-0-27933200-1460048424_thumb.j

Mike

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Lancashire Fusilier

Post 4829

an excellent photo with some 03 pattern equipment on show, the large haversacks look splendid

Keep the pictures coming

Dave,

Yes, that is a particularly nice kit photo, and I hope you continue to find the posts interesting.

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

Something that I haven't been able to pin down is a system used in Salonika - and presumably elsewhere - by the AA Sections to communicate with passing planes, particularly those chasing enemy aircraft. The Diaries refer to laying something out to indicate to allied scouts the last known direction of an enemy plane to assist in its pursuit. I'd guess that this is a giant arrow on some kind of a background so that it shows up at 15,000 feet. Has anyone found anything like this in a picture?

Keith,

Here are 2 excellent photographs which show ' Popham ' signal panels used for visual ground to aircraft signalling.

These 2 photographs show American troops using the signalling panels near the village of Beauval, which was on the main road between Amiens and Doullens, some 14 miles North of Amiens in the Somme region of Northern France.

The photographs are dated 30th July, 1918.

This type of fabric ground to aircraft signalling system, also ties in with Mike's excellent information.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Lancashire Fusilier

2

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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