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Remembered Today:

WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards


Lancashire Fusilier

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With reference to post # 4597, the RNAS Officer standing in the RNAS Armoured Car Section ' Seabrook ' Armoured Car, is Commander Oliver Stillingfleet Locker-Lampson, CMG., D.S.O. ( 25th September 1880 - 3rd October 1954 ), who commanded the RNAS Armoured Car Section.

LF

Locker-Lampson was first commissioned as a Lieutenant Commander RNVR. This officer is a Sub Lieutenant and not L-L I think..

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Locker-Lampson was first commissioned as a Lieutenant Commander RNVR. This officer is a Sub Lieutenant and not L-L I think..

Many thanks for the follow up, and I was actually in the process of researching that man's cuff rank insignia to see if it matched Locker-Lampson's rank, so you saved me the effort.

I shall edit the post, and just leave in some of the correct information.

Regards,

LF

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Nelson1805,

With reference to your Grandfather's RNAS Armoured Car Section's ' Douglas ' motorcycle, here is a nice photograph of an RNAS ( Royal Naval Air Service Armoured Car Section ) Unit with their ' Seabrook ' Armoured Car which is armed with a Vickers 3 Pdr. Semi-Automatic Gun, and the RNAS Unit's 2 Despatch Riders are both issued with ' Douglas ' motorcycles.

This photograph, was taken near Ypres ( West Flanders ) early in WW1.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

LF,

Many thanks for this post and your others regarding the 1888 bayonet, the Douglas motorcycles etc. I appreciate your interest and support.

I believe that my Grandfather served alongside PO / Sgt Bolton for much of WW1 and they were close pals. I am sure he would have been most touched and gratified to see that Bolton is commemorated on the memorial at Baku.

Your images of the funerals at Baku are most poignant. My late grandfather left various records, notes and photos but did not talk in great detail of his WW1 service in the RNAS Armoured Cars and MGC (Motors) / Dunsterforce. However I can recall him describing the defence of Baku and having the feeling that his days were numbered. They were encircled, expecting to be over-run and shown little mercy. However Dunsterville recognised the situation and withdrew his troops under cover of darkness on Sept 14th 1918, which happened to be my Grandfather's 23rd birthday. Grandfather said that he did not expect to survive that day.

During their withdrawal from Persia several other colleagues detached with an armoured car under the command of Col. Bicherakov were killed around a month later, sadly only a few days before the cessation.

There is an excellent book 'The Czar's British Squadron' by Bryan Perrett and Anthony Lord which gives a good account (and images) of the RNAS and Dunsterforce units. I know of at least one other prominent poster on the GWF who contributed to the book. My Grandfather is credited with shooting down an enemy aircraft and the text suggests '...quite possibly this was the first occasion in history when an aircraft was brought down by fire from a fighting vehicle..'

Finally returning to the context of your ongoing thread: among my Grandfather's photos I found the attached image of a larger armoured vehicle. The image is small and not brilliant quality but would be interested to know if you recognise it? Possibly a Seabrook or Pierce Arrow?

With thanks and best wishes

Nelson1805

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It is a Pierce Arrow.

Happy to help.

George (modelmaker)

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Finally returning to the context of your ongoing thread: among my Grandfather's photos I found the attached image of a larger armoured vehicle. The image is small and not brilliant quality but would be interested to know if you recognise it? Possibly a Seabrook or Pierce Arrow?

Nelson1805,

Thank you for the photograph, and more interesting information on your Grandfather's service.

The ' Pierce Arrow Armoured Car ' shown in your photograph, uses an American built Pierce-Arrow truck chassis made in Buffalo, New York State, U.S.A., with the ' Pierce Arrow ' Armoured Cars being built under contracts with the British War Department and Britain's Allies, France and Russia, with some 14,000 Pierce-Arrow trucks being shipped to Britain and her Allies during WW1.

Some of the Pierce-Arrow chassis shipped from America, were converted into armoured cars by British metal fabrication companies such as W. G. Allen & Sons of Tipton, Staffs, and fitted with a 3-pdr. Gun in a rotating fully enclosed turret, with the rotating turrets being made at John Shearman &.Co's shipyard at Newport, Monmouthshire.

Interestingly, I think the ' Pierce-Arrow ' was the first Armoured Car to use bullet-proof armoured glass in it's construction, with a 3 inch thick ' Triplex ' bullet-proof glass block being fitted into the driver's vision port.

Here is a photograph of a completed ' Pierce-Arrow ' armoured car as shown in your photograph, which were intended to replace the RNAS' ' Seabrooks ', and which saw service in Russia on the Eastern Front with Locker-Lampson's R.N.A.S. Armoured Car Division.

Regards,

LF

IWM. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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As the war progressed and the Despatch Riders took on a specific ' Signaller's ' role, we see them as either unarmed or armed with a revolver.


In the attached photograph of a Despatch Rider wearing ' Signaller ' armbands, and riding a ' Triumph ' motorcycle, we see him armed with an American .455 calibre Colt ' New Service ' revolver with a 5.5 inch barrel, which was one of the 60,000 .455 calibre service revolvers the War Department purchased from Colt during WW1 to supplement supplies of the .445 calibre Webley service revolver.


The other .445 calibre service revolver purchased by the WD from America during WW1, was the Smith & Wesson ' Hand Ejector ' with a 6.5 inch barrel, some 69,755 .455 calibre Smith & Wesson Mark II Hand Ejector service revolvers were supplied to the British Army during WW1.


Also, note the spare tyre innertubes stowed on the back of the ' Triumph ' motorcycle



LF





This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.


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Here from my own Firearms Collection, are examples of the three .455 calibre service revolvers which may have been carried by a Despatch Rider during WW1.

From the top, the .455 Webley Mark VI revolver with a 6 inch barrel, the Colt ' New Service ' .455 revolver with a 5.5 inch barrel, and the Smith & Wesson .455 Hand Ejector Mark II revolver with a 6.5 inch barrel.

LF

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It is a Pierce Arrow.

Happy to help.

George (modelmaker)

Hello ModelMaker,

Many thanks for your response.

Nelson1805

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Nelson1805,

Thank you for the photograph, and more interesting information on your Grandfather's service.

The ' Pierce Arrow Armoured Car ' shown in your photograph, uses an American built Pierce-Arrow truck chassis made in Buffalo, New York State, U.S.A., with the ' Pierce Arrow ' Armoured Cars being built under contracts with the British War Department and Britain's Allies, France and Russia, with some 14,000 Pierce-Arrow trucks being shipped to Britain and her Allies during WW1.

Some of the Pierce-Arrow chassis shipped from America, were converted into armoured cars by British metal fabrication companies such as W. G. Allen & Sons of Tipton, Staffs, and fitted with a 3-pdr. Gun in a rotating fully enclosed turret, with the rotating turrets being made at John Shearman &.Co's shipyard at Newport, Monmouthshire.

Interestingly, I think the ' Pierce-Arrow ' was the first Armoured Car to use bullet-proof armoured glass in it's construction, with a 3 inch thick ' Triplex ' bullet-proof glass block being fitted into the driver's vision port.

Here is a photograph of a completed ' Pierce-Arrow ' armoured car as shown in your photograph, which were intended to replace the RNAS' ' Seabrooks ', and which saw service in Russia on the Eastern Front with Locker-Lampson's R.N.A.S. Armoured Car Division.

Regards,

LF

IWM. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

LF

Many thanks once again. An excellent image - I will now have a better understanding of the respective Seabrook and Pierce Arrow heavy armoured vehicles.

I'm also interested to see your ongoing posts regarding motorcycles, dispatch riders and their personal equipment. It occurs to me that while we have shared images of the RNAS motorcycles on the western front - I do not recall them being used on the Eastern front?

Nelson1805

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I'm also interested to see your ongoing posts regarding motorcycles, dispatch riders and their personal equipment. It occurs to me that while we have shared images of the RNAS motorcycles on the western front - I do not recall them being used on the Eastern front?

Nelson1805

Nelson1805,

The RNAS did use motorcycles on the Eastern Front, and I have a photograph of an RNAS Locker-Lampson vehicle convoy on the Eastern Front containing motorcyces, I shall get to it later and post it here.

Regards,

LF

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I'm also interested to see your ongoing posts regarding motorcycles, dispatch riders and their personal equipment. It occurs to me that while we have shared images of the RNAS motorcycles on the western front - I do not recall them being used on the Eastern front?

Nelson1805,

The RNAS Russian Armoured Car Division operating as the RNAS Armoured Car Expeditionary Force in the Caucasus under the command of RNAS Commander Oliver Locker-Lampson, were equipped with ' Douglas ' Motorcycles.

In this photograph of an RNAS Russian Armoured Car Division convoy made up of ' Lanchester ' Armoured Cars on the Eastern Front, we can see one of the Staff Cars leading the convoy, a Renault Tourer carrying the Officers, is just in front of 2 of the convoy's motorcycles, which are in front of the convoy's leading Lanchester Armoured Car.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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Here is a photograph taken from a different angle, of that same RNAS Russian Armoured Car Division convoy taking a rest stop somewhere on the Eastern Front, as shown in the previous post.

This RNAS Russian Armoured Car Division convoy is made up of ' Lanchester ' Armoured Cars, in front of which are two motorcycles, and with their rear-wheel belt drives being on the right side of the rear-wheel, they are ' Douglas ' motorcycles. For the other commonly used military motorcycle, the ' Triumph ', the rear-wheel belt drive was on the left side of the rear-wheel.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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LF

Many thanks for clearing that up. An excellent image - not previously known to me. The wonders of the GWF.

I'm curious to know here you sourced this and other images relating to the RNAS Armoured Cars and MGC (Motors) units that served on the Eastern and Middle Eastern fronts?

I have a small collection of images among my late Grandfather's papers and service records. A few of these have been posted on this thread.

I have previously donated a set of my Grandfather's images to the RNAS archive and to the museum at Cromer (Locker-Lampson's home town during WW1).

I am aware of other images available in personal diaries from his former colleagues and in a couple of well known books. However it would be good to know if there are other sources available. I know that my surviving Uncles (both in their 90s, and I'm mindful that the clock is ticking for them) would be especially keen to see any previously unseen images or documents relating to their Father's service in these units. My own motivation is to ensure that the story is not forgotten, especially as it is (understandably) overshadowed by the scale of the Western front.

I would be grateful for any information / suggestions.

regards

Nelson1805

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With reference to WW1 motorcycle identification, where full details of the motorcycle may not be clearly visible, other details such as the positioning of the rear-wheel belt drive may help with identification, and on the two most commonly used WW1 military motorcycles, the ' Triumph ' and the ' Douglas ', fortunately the rear-wheel belt drives were on opposite sides of the rear wheel.

On the ' Triumph ' the rear-wheel belt drive was on the left of the rear-wheel, and on the ' Douglas ', it was on the right of the rear-wheel.

In this first example of 3 Despatch Riders with their motorcycles, on the ' Triumph ' motorcycle nearest the camera, we can clearly see the rear-wheel belt drive on the left side of the rear-wheel, and hopefully, the Despatch Rider's revolver is not loaded !

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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In this example of a Tank Corps' Officer riding his ' Douglas ' motorcycle, we can clearly see the rear-wheel belt drive on the right side of the rear-wheel.

Also, note the spare rear-wheel drive belt stowed on the back of the motorcycle, and the ' Tank ' badge on the Officer's right arm.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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With reference to post # 4612, also note the ' Brodie ' steel helmets hung on the back of the ' Lanchester ' armoured cars.

LF

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Hi L.F,

Any ideas as to where this pic might be from? There seem to be as many types of motorbike as badges/uniforms.

Lhs looks like an Irish badge.

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Hi L.F,

Any ideas as to where this pic might be from? There seem to be as many types of motorbike as badges/uniforms.

Lhs looks like an Irish badge.

GWF1967,

That is an interesting photograph, and appears to have been taken at a British Motor Transport Depot ( Repair Shop ), probably somewhere in France, as when you look closely, you will see from the attached enlargement that the man in the middle and the man on the far right are both in German uniforms, and so are German POWs.

It was common, for the British Motor Transport Depots to use German POWs.

Details of the motorcycles are minimal, and the motorcycle sidecar combination on the right could be a ' Clyno '.

Regards,

LF

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GWF1967,

That is an interesting photograph, and appears to have been taken at a British Motor Transport Depot ( Repair Shop ), probably somewhere in France, as when you look closely, you will see from the attached enlargement that the man in the middle and the man on the far right are both in German uniforms, and so are German POWs.

It was common, for the British Motor Transport Depots to use German POWs.

Details of the motorcycles are minimal, and the motorcycle sidecar combination on the right could be a ' Clyno '.

Regards,

LF

Many thanks LF, I had thought the chap in the centre might be German but was less sure on the second.
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Many thanks LF, I had thought the chap in the centre might be German but was less sure on the second.

GWF1967,

As you say, the man in the centre is definitely a German POW., the man far right, looks to be wearing a German peak cap ?

Based on the front forks on the motorcycle on the left, that is a ' Triumph ' ( there is a bolt just above the top of the mudguard marked with the arrow ) as seen in post 4614, also, again as seen in post 4614 the ' Triumph ' front forks had a thinner straight bar at the front with a thicker curved bar behind.

The front forks on the motorcycle combination on the right, compare with those on a ' Clyno ' motorcycle.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

LF

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Lancs,

Herewith a flea market find from many years ago. The sender is Triumph mounted, the card has been signed, 'Yours Truly', but unable to read the signature. Also signed to the rear ................ D.R. and what looks to be:- 3rd Amm Sect ......?

Regards,

Mike.

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Lancs,

Rear of card, can anyone decipher?

Mike.

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Lancs,

Herewith a flea market find from many years ago. The sender is Triumph mounted, the card has been signed, 'Yours Truly', but unable to read the signature. Also signed to the rear ................ D.R. and what looks to be:- 3rd Amm Sect ......?

Regards,

Mike.

Mike,

A nice original photographic post card showing an A.S.C. ( Army Service Corps ) Despatch Rider on his ' Triumph ' motorcycle.

I agree with you :-

His name - D.R. for Despatch Rider - attached to the ( A.S.C. ) 3rd Ammuntion Sub Park - B.E.F. ( British Expeditionary Force ).

Regards,

LF

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I'm also interested to see your ongoing posts regarding motorcycles, dispatch riders and their personal equipment. It occurs to me that while we have shared images of the RNAS motorcycles on the western front - I do not recall them being used on the Eastern front?

Nelson1805,

Here is another example of motorcycles being used by the RNAS Armoured Car Division on the Eastern Front, in this rare photograph, men of the RNAS Armoured Car Expeditionary Force in the Caucasus, have set up a rest camp as they make their way through Armenia, and part of their equipment is a ' Douglas ' motorcycle.

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

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