WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Although the lorry mounted 13 pounder 6 cwt Quick Firing Anti-Aircraft Gun had been reasonably successful, the decision was taken in Mid-1915 to similarly convert the 18 pounder Field Gun to a lorry mounted Anti-Aircraft Gun, and following successful experimentation at converting the 18 pounder by re-lining it to 3-inch calibre, an initial order for 50 of the newly converted 18 pounders was placed, and on November 20th 1915 the converted 18 pounder, to be known officially as the Ordnance Quick Firing 13 pdr 9 cwt, was introduced.

The new 9 cwt ( barrel & breech weight ) Gun had a maximum range ( ceiling ) of 19,000 feet, and a Muzzle Velocity of 2150 f/sec.

The lorry mounting for the new 13 pounder 9 cwt QF Anti-Aircraft Gun was a modified Mk 2 High Angle mount, adapted to take the larger gun and cradle known as the Mk 3 Motor Lorry mounting.

The new Mk 3 mount provided a maximum elevation of 80 degrees, with a 360 degree traverse, and gave the gun a 24 inch recoil.

The Mk 3 Motor Lorry mounting subsequently proved to be inadequate for the larger 9 cwt gun, and was soon replaced by the successful Mk 4 Motor Lorry mount.

The Mk 3 Motor Lorry Mount was also fitted with a distinctive large metal dial attached to the mount, which I understand was a ' Fuze Range Dial ', and hopefully someone will correct if that is the wrong description for the dial.

The first photograph gives an excellent detailed view of the Mk 3 Motor Lorry mount, which was specifically designed for the new 13 pounder 9 cwt QF AA Gun.

LF

British Artillery Weapons 1914-18 Hogg & Thurston. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Detailed view of the Mk 3 Motor Lorry Mount's distinctive ' Fuze Range Dial '.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A Battery of lorry mounted 13 pounder 9 cwt Quick Firing Anti-Aircraft Guns, fitted with the Mk 3 Motor lorry Mount, going into action near the village of Montauban 6 miles East of Albert in the Somme region of Northern France, in October 1916.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Rockdoc]

When were these modifications made between the Marks? Photos that appear to have a longer top buffer are supposed to be illustrating the early guns, although they normally show the side mounted shield. Are you sure that the early guns didn't have different length buffers, or am I misinterpreting the posts?

There is nothing in common between a Mark III and a Mark IV. Although it looks that way, the Mark IV is not a development of the Mark III but a completely separate design. The Mark III is a R.H.A. 13-pdr. which has been modified to allow it to be used in high-angle situations, one being the addition of a catch in the breech to hold the shell-case while the breech-block was closed. The Mark IV was a private design of field gun by Elswick.

All I know is that the double buffer arrangements (I think actually a damper and an additional spring-case to improve the return of the barrel to the firing position) are visibly different. On the Mark III the two are very similar in size and about the same length as the barrel. On the Elswick-made Mark IV, the upper one is about the same length as the barrel but the lower one is noticeably shorter.

Double buffers were only standard on Mark III guns on Mark I HA mounts and on the Mark IVs, though some additional buffers were fitted to other types because the return to the firing position always seems to have been a problem - in Salonika at least. Mark III guns on the MArk II HA mount only have a single buffer which is, again, about the same length as the barrel. The 13-pdr 9-cwt gun, as in 3875, is distinguished by the barrel being much longer than the buffer.

The Mark III HA mount was a Mark II modified to take the 18-pdr. fittings of the 9-cwt gun. It wasn't strong enough and was replaced by the improved Mark IV.

Keith

[Rockdoc]

The mechanism for the fuze-range dial seems to have been quite flimsy. There are regular mentions of components having to be taken to Workshops to be straightened in the Salonika Diaries. This was a considerable nuisance because the gun was out of action in the meantime.

Keith

[kevinrowlinson]

There is nothing in common between a Mark III and a Mark IV. Although it looks that way, the Mark IV is not a development of the Mark III but a completely separate design. The Mark III is a R.H.A. 13-pdr. which has been modified to allow it to be used in high-angle situations, one being the addition of a catch in the breech to hold the shell-case while the breech-block was closed. The Mark IV was a private design of field gun by Elswick.

All I know is that the double buffer arrangements (I think actually a damper and an additional spring-case to improve the return of the barrel to the firing position) are visibly different. On the Mark III the two are very similar in size and about the same length as the barrel. On the Elswick-made Mark IV, the upper one is about the same length as the barrel but the lower one is noticeably shorter.

Double buffers were only standard on Mark III guns on Mark I HA mounts and on the Mark IVs, though some additional buffers were fitted to other types because the return to the firing position always seems to have been a problem - in Salonika at least. Mark III guns on the MArk II HA mount only have a single buffer which is, again, about the same length as the barrel. The 13-pdr 9-cwt gun, as in 3875, is distinguished by the barrel being much longer than the buffer.

The Mark III HA mount was a Mark II modified to take the 18-pdr. fittings of the 9-cwt gun. It wasn't strong enough and was replaced by the improved Mark IV.

Keith

Then I can only assume that the use for the term "mark" was introduced later than the photos shown. One of the earliest references I have seen for a designation is for 12 Feb 1916 when 14 AA Sect took over two 13 pdr 9 cwt guns from 35 AA Sect in exchange for two 13 pdr Mark II 6 cwt guns. 14 AA Sect do not actually say exactly what they went out with.

I was just trying to establish whether it was possible to indicate what Section was being shown. Not important, any more than identifying the 99th was.

I will let LF continue with his great posts.

Kevin

[Rockdoc]

I think it's likely that 14 AAS would have been equipped with 6-cwt guns when it arrived in France, although very early AA Sections were initially equipped with other types. It is most unlikely that it had 9-cwt guns unless it was sent out of sequence to its number - which I've not found anywhere - because the 9-cwt wasn't even proposed by the Army Council until 19th August 1915 and delivery from the first batch ordered were to begin in December that year so it would seem that 14 AAS received two of the first 9-cwt guns. "Satisfactory deliveries" of 9-cwt guns weren't achieved until June 1916, apparently because the sighting gear had to be modified. (History of the Ministry of Munitions, Volume 10)

Keith

[kevinrowlinson]

14 AA Sect eventually disembarked 20th Jan 1915. This only only one reason why I think talking a marks may be misleading. I do not know whether LF has posted those of 11 AA Sect earlier (held by the IWM) but would suggest that both 11th & 14th AA Sects may have had the same guns.

Kevin

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In posts 3860 and 3877, I did not include the locations where the photographs were taken, so here they are, and I shall also update the posts :-

3860 - Anti-Aircraft guns from the 55th Division in action near the village of Wailly, 3 miles SW of Arras in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of Northern France on 16th April, 1916.

3877 - Anti-Aircraft guns going into action near the village of Montauban, 6 miles East of Albert in the Somme regio of Northern France in October 1916.

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Three photographs of the same Thornycroft J-Type Lorry W^D Census Number 21148, mounted with a 13 pounder 9 cwt Quick Firing Anti-Aircraft Gun on a Mk 3 High Angle motor lorry mount, in action at Armentieres in March 1916.

The town of Armentieres, in the French Flanders region of Northen France, is on the Belgian Border 9 miles NW of Lille.

The first photograph, shows lorry No. W^D 21148 with it's gun having the distinctive Mk 3 HA mount's large Fuze-Range Dial, being prepared for action with the crew securing the blocks under the lorry's stabilizing jacks.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thornycroft J-Type Lorry W^D Census Number 21148, mounted with a 13 pounder 9 cwt Quick Firing Anti-Aircraft Gun on a Mk 3 High Angle motor lorry mount, in action at Armentieres in March 1916.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A closer view of Thornycroft J-Type Lorry W^D Census Number 21148, along with it's officer and gun crew in action at Armentieres in March 1916.

Note the storage locker arrangement behind the driver's seat, which included the ammunition lockers, one on each side of the lorry, and another ammunition locker at the rear of the lorry.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The 13 pdr 9 cwt QF Anti-Aircraft Battery to which the Thornycroft J-Type lorry W^D Census Number 21148 was attached, are seen going into action at Armentieres in March 1916.

This photo gives good details of the Mk 3 High Angle motor lorry mount, and also the J-Type's rear ammunition locker.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

During my research on the 13 pounder Quick Firing Anti-Aircraft Gun, it has been fascinating to learn that this gun, in fact, had no less than 5 different mounts, ranging from Mk 1 to Mk 5.

With regard to the Mark 2 High Angle motor lorry mount, very little is written regarding this particular mount, and again referring to Hogg & Thurston's reference book, whilst they do show a photograph of a 13 pdr 6 cwt QF AA Gun fitted on a Mk 2 mount on a Thornycroft J-Type Lorry, it is taken from the left-side of the lorry/gun ( see post 3863 ), and does not show the right-side of the gun, and had they shown the right-side, we would have seen that as with the Mk 3 High Angle mount, the Mk 2 High Angle mount also had a large Fuze-Range Dial fitted to the right-side of the mount.

Fortunately, although both the Mk 2 and the Mk 3 High Angle motor lorry mounts had large Fuze-Range Dials fitted, there is no confusing them, as the total length of the gun on the Mk 2 mount is 73+ inches, with the barrel and recuperator being almost the same length, whereas the total length of the gun on the Mk 3 mount is 96+ inches, with the barrel being much longer than the recuperator, plus there are several other clear visual differences.

Although the Mk 2 mount replaced the Mk 1 mount, it is not clear when that occurred, or if in fact any Mk 2 mounts were used on the Western Front, or was the Mk 1 mount in service on the Western Front replaced directly by the Mk 3 mount ?

From photographic evidence, it is known that the Mk 2 mount was used in Palestine, Egypt and Salonika.

In post # 3880, Keith mentions reports from troops in Salonika that the Fuze-Range Dial was prone to damage, and it is most probable that those Fuze-Range Dials referred to, were in fact fitted to the Mk 2 High Angle motor lorry mount and the gun was a 13 pounder 6 cwt QF Anti-Aircraft Gun.

The first photograph, taken in Egypt, shows a Thornycroft J-Type mounted with a 13 pdr 6 cwt QF Anti-Aircraft Gun on a Mk 2 High Angle motor lorry mount, with the photograph having been taken from the right-side of the lorry/gun.

Note the length of the barrel and recuperator, the overall design of the Mk 2 mount, and the large Fuze-Range Dial also fitted to the Mk 2 mount.

LF

AWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is an edit to the previous photograph, which was taken in Palestine in 1917, and not Egypt.

Attached is another 1917 photograph of a Thornycroft J-Type also mounted with a 13 pdr. QF AA Gun on a Mk 2 HA mount, also of note is the muzzle cap fitted to the barrel, no doubt to keep the desert sand out of the barrel.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

Is it known if these guns were used against anything other than aircraft?

[kevinrowlinson]

LF

Could you identify the lorry that is being used here please? Also have you seen a British horse drawn AA unit?

As seen at http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205223686, although it is not 112 AA Sect.

Kevin

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Could you identify the lorry that is being used here please? Also have you seen a British horse drawn AA unit?

Kevin

Kevin,

That is a camouflaged American made ' Peerless ' rear-wheel chain-drive lorry mounted with a 13 pounder 6 cwt Quick Firing Anti-Aircraft Gun on a Mk 1 High Angle motor lorry mount.

You can also see the large side-shield attached to the left side of the cradle on the Mk 1 mount, which was designed to protect the Gunlayer from the gun's recoil ( see attached highlighted photograph showing the side-shield ).

In answer to your question regarding the horse-drawn AA Unit, the answer is yes, and I shall shortly be posting details and photographs of that particular AA Gun.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Is it known if these guns were used against anything other than aircraft?

Johnboy,

The short films I have seen of these guns in action, always depict aerial targets being fired at, as with the photographs.

Keith has excellent information on the AA Guns used in Salonika, and likewise other members may also have information or extracts from war diaries which may indicate these AA guns were used against targets other than aircraft or balloons.

Regards,

LF

[johnboy]

Thanks LF. It would be interesting to know.

[kevinrowlinson]

Kevin,

That is a camouflaged American made ' Peerless ' rear-wheel chain-drive lorry mounted with a 13 pounder 6 cwt Quick Firing Anti-Aircraft Gun on a Mk 1 High Angle motor lorry mount.

You can also see the large side-shield attached to the left side of the cradle on the Mk 1 mount, which was designed to protect the Gunlayer from the gun's recoil ( see attached highlighted photograph showing the side-shield ).

In answer to your question regarding the horse-drawn AA Unit, the answer is yes, and I shall shortly be posting details and photographs of that particular AA Gun.

Regards,

LF

Thank you. I shall make a note as it may help with the chronology of the early sections.

I have, for a little time, tried to determine exactly what sections were the first in France in 1914. I believe there were 4 that arrived before the end of the year, one of which was 11th AA Sect as in photo. There is reference that one section was one horse drawn detachment being an 18lb gun (converted for AA work). Your photo 3872 is captioned as being " The first lorry-mounted 18-pounder field gun for anti-aircraft defence with 4th Division, British Expeditionary Corps, Nieppe, France, November 1914. Under command of Captain C A Mortimore." Capt. Mortimore would later become OC of 14 AA Sect on 31st Jan 1915, which would later become the AA Instructional and HQ on 15th May 1915. I believe 3 sections went out roughly together with 12th AA Sect a little later. I suspect that the 12th may be the odd one as this went through a couple of designations later.

If the gun in your photo 3872 and the one above are the same, later known as a Mk IV if Keith is correct, then it may imply all the Elswick guns went out first. Of course even if these were the first guns to be sent it doesn't mean that the photo was taken that early and possibly later when further modifications had been made.

With regard to the timing of the mountings for the 13pdr 6 cwt and 9 cwt there is very little written in the 14th's diary but the following may be of interest.

20-4-1915 "elevating gear fixed, can now fire 0 to 65 degrees"

12-2-1916 "14 AA Sect took over two 13 pdr 9 cwt guns from 35 AA Sect in exchange for two Mk II 6 cwt guns"

10-3-1916 "Two 13 pdr 9 cwt guns transferred to 20 AA Bty in exchange for two 13 pdr 6 cwt guns"

12-3-1916 "Experimental carriage (Air Recuperator) received from England" ( 9 cwt gun?)

4-7-1916 "Two experimental guns went to IOMs for exchange of buffers" ( 9 cwt gun?)

5-7-1916 "Receives one gun with experimental Buffer" ( 9cwt gun?)

18-9-1916 "Spring Buffer replaced with Air Buffer" ( 9 cwt gun?)

20-10-1916 "New Mark IV Mounting and lorry arrived from Base, in exchange for Mk II"

23-10-1916 "Mk III lorry mounting returned to base"

I suppose there is the possibility that the "experimental guns" may have been the 20 cwt to see how they performed in theatre.

Kevin

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Kevin,

Here is another photograph of the Peerless lorry and 13 pdr shown in your post 3892, and again, it gives excellent detail of the Mk 1 mount's side shield which covers most of the Gunlayer's torso.

Hogg & Thurston reports that one of the 6 original 13 pdrs purchased from Elswick, was stationed at Enfield Lock in May 1915 to provide AA protection to the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, and that gun, along with the other 5 were all sent to France in the latter half of 1915.

The Guns shown in post 3871 appear to have a smaller side-shield than that shown in 3872, and the side-shield shown in the attached photograph is the same as those shown in post 3871. However, the lorries shown in post 3871 were LGOC B-Types, and the attached photo shows the rear-wheel chain-drive Peerless lorry.

What is also important, is the 14th's diary note of 20-10-1916 reporting that a Mk IV mounting was exchanged for a Mk II ( Mount ), this is the first reference I have seen to the Mk II mount being in service on the Western Front, and as yet, I have not seen a photograph showing that.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

2 more photographs, both taken in Egypt, showing 13 pdr 6 cwt QF AA Guns mounted on Mk 2 High Angle motor lorry mounts.

The first photograph, dated 1915, gives good details of the Fuze-Range Dial fitted to the Mk 2 mount, and the second photograph, shows the Mk 2 mount on a Thornycroft J-Type lorry.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Photographed in Egypt, a Thornycroft J-Type lorry mounted with a 13 pdr 6 cwt QF AA Gun on a Mk 2 High Angle motor lorry mount.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Rockdoc]

The 13-pdr 6-cwt gun was fitted to the Mark 1 and Mark 2 HA mount. The Mark 3 was a Mark 2 that had been modified to accept the different fittings of the 9-cwt gun but proved too flimsy for the extra forces resulting from the 18-pdr charge being used with the 13-pdr shell - only the barrel was sleeved and the 18-pdr breech retained with minor modifications for AA work. The beefed-up HA mount for the 9-cwt gun was the Mark 4 and this quickly became the standard. If the gun is a 9-cwt then the mount must be a Mark 3 or, more likely, a Mark 4, whatever the caption says!.

I don't believe there was anything to prevent an AA gun being used as a conventional field gun or, indeed, field guns being propped up and used to fire at higher angles, though these were improvised and wouldn't have had any of the modifications of the 'proper' AA guns.

I have some evidence that one of the purposes of an AA gun, in Salonika at least, was to act as a sacrificial lamb. I remember one Diary entry where the AA sub-section is associated with a Siege Gun. When a plane is spotted, the AA gun fires a shot to warn the Siege Gun crew to cease fire and cover the emplacement with camouflage and then the AA Gun bangs away at the plane to try and distract it from hunting for the main target.

Keith