WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Another view of one of the Royal Naval Mobile Anti-Aircraft Brigade's 3-pounder High Velocity Quick Firing High Angle Vickers Guns, mounted on a Italian ' Lancia ' 1Z 1.5-Ton 35 hp Light Lorry, number plate LH 9398.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With reference to the previous post, here is a photograph of that same RNMAAB Lancia ( number plate LH 9398 ) with it's Vickers 3 pounder QF Gun in the firing postion.

The Lancia light lorry's sides have been dropped to form a firing platform, which is supported by movable legs, in much the same way as the work platform on a mobile workshop.

The Italian ' Lancia ' 1Z 1.5-Ton 35 hp Light Lorry is mounted with a 3-pounder High Velocity, High Angle ( High Angle - a gun mounting which was capable of an elevation exceeding 50° from the horizontal, allowing the gun to be used against aircraft ), QF ( Quick Firing - a complete round formed from a metal ( brass ) cartridge case containing the propellant and projectile in one unit thus enabling higher firing rates ) Vickers Gun.

This photograph was taken at the RNMAAB's barracks and HQ at Kenwood House, and in the background of this photograph can be seen one of the Brigade's 75 mm Quick Firing French ' AutoCanons ' mounted on French De Dion chassis.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

After trying a modification to a 3.3inch army field gun in the anti-aircraft role, the Quick Fire (QF) 3in gun was developed. It was the first equipment designed specifically for the anti-aircraft (AA) role. This 3 inch gun mounted on a 20cwt vehicle was introduced in March 1914. It was a very effective gun and continued in service until the 1940s. At 45 degrees it had a range of almost 11,000yds with a rate of fire of 25 per minute and an effective AA ceiling of 23,000 ft. This was sufficient to attack the Gothas that operated up to 16,000ft. Early designers of AA equipments mounted their guns on lorries that were easily available but because they were difficult to stabilise they were soon replaced by towed platforms.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Early designers of AA equipments mounted their guns on lorries that were easily available but because they were difficult to stabilise they were soon replaced by towed platforms.

johnboy,

Thank you for the additional interesting information.

The ' towed platform ' mounting for the 3-inch 20-cwt Anti-Aircraft Guns, designed to improve the gun's stability when firing, was introduced in May 1916, and Commander Rawlinson of the RNMAAB who assisted with their design, referred to them as ' Trailer ' mounted AA Guns, and they were initially designed specifically for use by the RNMAAB in the mobile Anti-Aircraft defence of London.

The 3-inch 20-cwt ' Trailer ' mounted gun was attached to a towing vehicle, and in the case of the RNMAAB, they used the ' Lancia 1Z ' 1.5-Ton Light Lorry.

The ' Trailer ' consisted of a heavy steel platform on which the 3-inch 20-cwt AA Gun was mounted, and on either side of the platform were 2 additional ' folding ' platform extensions, which were folded up and stowed when the trailer was in transit, and when the gun was stationary in the firing position, these side platform extensions were lowered in place to complete the gun's firing platform.

The ' Trailer ' was mounted on a single axle, riding on 2 wheels each with double sets of tyres, which were detached when the trailer mounting was set up in the firing position.

The ' Trailer ' gun mounting was constructed by Mr. R.E.L. Maunsell, the Chief Engineer at the South-Eastern Railway works at Ashford, with the design for the ' Trailer ' mounting having been prepared by a Mr. Whale, the Designer at Messrs. Armstrong, Whitworth & Co., in conjunction with Commander A. Rawlinson of the RNMAAB.

Attached are 2 photographs, the first showing an RNMAAB ' Trailer ' mounted 3-inch 20-cwt Anti-Aircraft Gun being towed by a Lancia 1Z 1.5 Ton Light Lorry, and the other showing the ' Trailer ' mounted 3-inch 20-cwt Anti-Aircraft Gun in the stationary firing position with the firing platform fully extended and the Trailer's axle and wheels detached.

The first photograph, also gives excellent details of the crew needed to man both the trailer's towing vehicle and the attached ' Trailer ' mounted gun, and the crew members positions on each.

In the first photograph, Commander A. Rawlinson of the RNMAAB is seen on the far left, standing at the front of the Lancia 1Z.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An RNMAAB ' Trailer ' mounted 3-inch 20-cwt Anti-Aircraft gun shown in the firing position with the gun detached from it's towing vehicle, with the firing platform's 2 side extentions fully lowered in position, and with the trailer's wheeled axle detached.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This photograph gives us good details of the uniforms worn both by the officers and men of the Royal Naval Mobile Anti-Aircraft Brigade, as they line-up for inspection by Commander A. Rawlinson in front of their Lancia 1Z 1.5 Ton Light Lorries mounted with 3-inch QF AA Guns.

As in the photograph shown in post # 3776, the men are wearing navy blue short coats, naval leather gaiters, and it is hard to tell if their navy blue peak caps have a cap badge, which may be hard to see dark R.N. or R.N.V.R. cap badge.

Also of interest, is Commander A. Rawlinson's uniform, which interestingly, has the cuff rank insignia of a Commander in the Royal Navy, not the R.N.V.R.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Uncle George]

Also of interest, is Commander A. Rawlinson's uniform, which interestingly, has the cuff rank insignia of a Commander in the Royal Navy, not the R.N.V.R.

He's wearing RNR insignia, surely.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

He's wearing RNR insignia, surely.

I am not familiar with naval cuff insignia, so you may be correct. Commander Rawlinson came from the R.N.V.R., who's cuff rank insignia has the distinctive ' wavy rope ' style of cuff lace, whereas, the RN cuff lace is made up of ' straight ' lines. ( see attached examples for a Commander in the R.N.V.R and the R.N. )

With Commander Rawlinson coming from the R.N.V.R., I was expecting his cuff lace to be the ' wavy rope ' style, however, based on that photograph and others, his cuff lace seems to be the R.N. style.

Regards,

LF

[Uncle George]

RN is the straight line. RNVR, the wavy line. RNR as attached.

[Uncle George]

RN for comparison:

[Lancashire Fusilier]

RN is the straight line. RNVR, the wavy line. RNR as attached.

Here is an enlargement of Commander Rawlinson's cuff rank insignia, which looks for be the Royal Navy ' straight line ' design rather than R.N.V.R. or R.N.R. designs.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

When Commander Rawlinson initially organized the Royal Naval Mobile Anti-Aircraft Brigade in late 1915, he listed their assets as including 1 x 3-inch 20 cwt High Velocity Quick Firing High Angle British Gun, mounted on a Daimler motor lorry ( post # 3767 ).

This 3-inch AA Gun mounted on a Daimler lorry, may have been a one-off prototype, as it's design shown in the attached very interesting photograph, was of a type not seen before, as not only did the Daimler lorry have the usual drop-down sides supported on legs, which formed the firing platform, it also had 2 metal gantries on each side of the lorry supporting stabilizing jacks which were stowed against the chassis when the lorry was in transit, and then swung outwards with their stabilizer jacks lowered in place to add support to the lorry when the gun was in the firing position. This design being very similar to the swing-out stabilizing jack gantries used on the 12-inch Railway Guns, and the pull-out stabilizer jacks used on both the Thornycroft and Peerless lorries used as mounts for the 13 pdr. AA Guns.

Additionally, this Daimler lorry also had fold down arms at the rear which supported stabilizing feet.

Also of note in the attached photograph of the RNMAAB's 3-inch AA Gun mounted on the Daimler lorry in the firing position, were the gun's crew members wearing white-topped peak caps.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[GRANVILLE]

Am I right in thinking this was the gun modeled as a Dinky Toy?

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Am I right in thinking this was the gun modeled by as a Dinky Toy?

David

David,

Dinky Toys released a mobile Anti-Aircraft Gun set No. 161 in 1939, and it was withdrawn in 1941. It originally cost 1/6d, and a nice boxed set now sells for several hundred pounds.

The Dinky model mobile AA Gun, certainly looks like some of the WW1 vintage mobile AA Guns we have been reviewing.

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Am I right in thinking this was the gun modeled as a Dinky Toy?

David

David,

Looking at the design features shown on the ' Dinky Toys ' AA Gun, it looks to have been modelled on a 3-inch 20 cwt Anti-Aircraft Gun mounted on a pedestal base, an example of which is on display in the Royal Artillery Museum ( see attached ).

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Commander Rawlinson had previously worked on helping with the setting up of the Anti-Aircraft defences for Paris, so he was very familiar with the French 75 mm Anti-Aircraft Auto-Canon successfully used by the French in Paris.

In evaluating the British needs for the Anti-Aircraft defence of London, Rawlinson compared the then current Paris model, where to defend Paris' 45 square mile area, the French deployed the following :-

127 Quick Firing Guns

88 Machine Guns

41 Searchlights

Manned by 2500 men, and 57 officers.

This compared with Metropolitan London's 700 square miles, for which Rawlinson needed to set up anti-aircraft defences.

With his daunting task in mind, on September 16th, 1915, Commander Rawlinson left for Paris to obtain a French 75 mm Auto-Canon which would be brought back to London for testing and evaluation.

Commander Rawlinson met with the French at their Arsenal at Chantilly and obtained a 75 mm Auto-Canon which he had test fired at the nearby French fort of Mont Valerian, before heading back to Boulogne with the 75 mm Auto-Canon and one Caisson.

Commander Rawlinson reports that on the journey back to Boulogne, the 5 ton 75 mm Auto-Canon mounted on a De Dion Bouton chassis had no problem maintaining an impressive 50 mph.

Following the 75 mm Auto-Canon's successful testing back in London, an initial 4 French 75 mm Auto-Canons were added to the RNMAAB's arsenal.

This number was to substantially increase with additional 75 mm Auto-Canons coming from the French, as well as their supplying un-assembled Auto-Canons, which were then assembled at the Coventry Ordnance Works.

Attached are 2 photographs of the French 75 mm Auto-Canon, which Commander Rawlinson brought back from France for testing and evaluation in London.

The first photograph, shows the 75 mm Auto-Canon made ready for transit, with it's barrel facing forward and stowed between the front seats. This model being the later French model without the fitted firing platform, with loading taking place by crew members standing on the ground, which enabled a much quicker loading procedure and thereby a higher rate of fire.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The newer model 75 mm Auto-Canon in the firing position, with the breech easily accessible for loading by a crew member standing on the ground, as opposed to the earlier model which had a fitted raised firing platform attached to the gun.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In posts # 3790/91, note the 3 jacks on each side of the chassis used to stabilize the chassis when the gun was in the firing position, and also the position of those raised and stowed jacks when the vehicle was travelling.

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A rare photograph of one of the Royal Naval Mobile Anti-Aircraft Brigade's 75 mm Auto-Canons shown in RNAAB livery, complete with it's ' RN ' marking.

This photograph, which also shows Commander Rawlinson ( centre ), was taken at Kenwood House during an inspection of the RNMAAB by Admiral Sir Percy Scott.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Carter]

I wonder if the motor laboratory was used to help treat all the respiratory diseases caused by smoking all those cigarettes!

[BSM]

The thread remains a good read thanks to the contributors. Re your current interesting direction LF, a good supplementary read to those interested would be this publication. Regards.... Rod

THE DEFENCE of LONDON 1915-1918 BY A. RAWLINSON, CMC, C.B.E., D.S.O. COMMANDER R.N.V.R. AND LT.-COL. R.G.A. AUTHOR OF "ADVENTURES IN THE NEAR EAST, 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The thread remains a good read thanks to the contributors. Re your current interesting direction LF, a good supplementary read to those interested would be this publication. Regards.... Rod

Rod,

Thanks for the information, I have a copy of Rawlinson's memoir on ' The Defence of London ' and agree that it makes an excellent read.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The new model 75 mm Auto-Canon, with it's breech being loaded by a crew member standing on the ground, had the advantage of a faster loading procedure and a higher rate of fire, the disadvantage being that the gun could only be rotated 240 degrees rather than 360 degrees, thereby creating a ' dead angle ' in which the gun could not be fired.

In order to increase the gun's Field of Fire to 360 degrees, Commander Rawlinson designed a ' Portable Turntable ' similar to a railway turntable used to rotate a railway engine.

Rawlinson's ' Portable Turntable ' was placed on the ground, with the gun's vehicle being driven onto the turntable, secured in place on the turntable, enabling the vehicle and it's mounted gun to be fully rotated 360 degrees and increasing the gun's Field of Fire substantially to 360 degrees.

The ' Portable Turntable ' consisted of a large circular steel platform with internal cruciform supports and a central pivot, onto which, a second rotating circular platform was mounted. The lower portion of the turntable had an internal track, on which rollers contained in the upper portion of the turntable, would run.

This second outer platform would retain the gun's vehicle in place, enabling the vehicle and it's mounted gun to be fully and easily rotated and follow it's target in any and every direction through 360 degrees, without deranging the aim of the Gunners.

After Rawlinson's ' Portable Gun Turntable ' was successfully tested in London and Shoeburyness, it was manufactured at the Coventry Ordnance Works.

Attached are 2 photographs showing Rawlinson's ' Portable Gun Turntable ', the first shows the turntable's two parts before assembly, and the second photograph shows the assembled turntable in position on the ground ready to receive the gun's vehicle.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

How extensively was it used?

The time to set it all up.......

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The fully assembled ' Portable Turntable ' in position, and ready to receive the vehicle with it's mounted gun.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.