WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The British Army's South African connection with the 4.7 inch Field Gun continued into WW1, with new metal ' Woolwich ' style gun carriages being made for the 4.7 inch Field Guns at the ' Salt River ' factory outside Cape Town, South Africa.

In the attached undated WW1 period photograph, we see new metal ' Woolwich ' style gun carriages being fitted to 4.7 inch guns. The photograph's information does not tell us if these new metal gun carriages are being fitted to 4.7 inch guns for the first time, or are replacement gun carriages for the wooden ( Percy Scott ) gun carriages ? Nor do we know, if these 4.7 inch Field Guns are for use in Africa, or are to be shipped elsewhere ?

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Undated WW1 period photograph showing completed 4.7 inch Field Guns and their Limbers constructed at the ' Salt River ' factory outside Cape Town, South Africa, being handed over to the Army.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[GRANVILLE]

I used to own a 4.7" Naval gun!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I used to own a 4.7" Naval gun!

David,

I also have one in my Britains toy collection, it had an extremely long life in the Britains' catalogue, first appearing in 1902 at the end of the Second Boer War, and it was still being made by Britains up till 1966.

Regards,

LF

[ifanlloyd]

That is an interesting photo.In the background are cabs for steam engines.Could they have been made at some locomotive builders ????

[GRANVILLE]

The scene is certainly a railway depot with engine sheds in the background and engines just visible in between the buildings.

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

That is an interesting photo.In the background are cabs for steam engines.Could they have been made at some locomotive builders ????

Steel production and Locomotive construction were important industries in Salt River in the early 1900s, and as was seen in Britain, many such industries turned over their facilities to armament production in support of the war effort.

Unfortunately, the photo caption only tells us the location of the factory ( Salt River ) and not the name of the factory.

Regards,

LF

[David Filsell]

LF,

Not sure when the 4.7 was withdrawn from BEF service. They were certainly still in use when the Somme battles started.

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF,

Not sure when the 4.7 was withdrawn from BEF service. They were certainly still in use when the Somme battles started.

David

David,

Photographs of the 4.7 inch Field Gun in use on the Western Front, which I shall be posting over the next few days, show the 4.7 inch Field Gun was used both in France and Flanders from the start of WW1 and certainly until the end of 1916 during the Battle of the Somme.

Before the Battle of the Somme ( July - November 1916 ), the largest concentrated use of the 4.7 inch Field Gun had been for the barrage used at the Battle of Loos in September 1915 when 12 x 4.7 inch Field Guns were used, this compared with the 32 x 4.7 inch Field Guns used in the barrage before the start of the Battle of the Somme.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Although not a particularly clear photograph of the 4.7 inch Field Gun, it does document the 4.7's early use during WW1, and shows local civilians watching horse-drawn 4.7 inch Field Guns passing Cloth Hall, Ypres, which were being brought forward in preparation for the First Battle of Ypres fought during October - November 1914.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Dated October 19, 1914, this photograph shows 4.7 inch Field Guns of the Royal Garrison Artillery in action close to the small village of Terhand, some 7 miles east of Ypres, during the First Battle of Ypres.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Another photograph showing the early deployment of the 4.7 inch Field Gun at the start of WW1 during the First Battle of Ypres in late 1914, this photograph, which shows a medical officer of the 20th Brigade, 7th Division standing in front of a 4.7 inch Field Gun, gives very good details both of the uniform and equipment worn by a British officer in the opening stages of WW1, and also details of the 4.7 inch Field Gun mounted on the Mk I ' Woolwich ' gun carriage, the design of which dates back to the Second Boer War.

Also of note, are the 12 inch recoil buffers, mounted on top of the gun, which had been fitted to many the 4.7 inch Field Guns sent to the Western Front at the start of WW1.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This photograph, taken during the later part of the Second Boer War which ended on 31st May, 1902, shows a 4.7 inch Gun mounted on a ' Woolwich ' style gun carriage, the type used as the gun carriages for the 4.7 inch Field Guns sent to the Western Front at the start of WW1.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[David Filsell]

Terrific selection of pictures, many of which I had not seen before. They raise some interesting questions. It should perhaps be pointed out what useless piece of kit the 4.7 was, Basically it was a large bore field gun , large and unwieldy. It also earned a reputation for inaccuracy. The OH points out it was know as "strictly neutral" because of its ability to fire rounds which regularly dropped short. The fact that it remained in service so long says much about the slow speed at artillery production was increased.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Terrific selection of pictures, many of which I had not seen before. They raise some interesting questions. It should perhaps be pointed out what useless piece of kit the 4.7 was, Basically it was a large bore field gun , large and unwieldy. It also earned a reputation for inaccuracy. The OH points out it was know as "strictly neutral" because of its ability to fire rounds which regularly dropped short. The fact that it remained in service so long says much about the slow speed at artillery production was increased.

David,

I am pleased to hear you are enjoying the 4.7 photographs.

Many of the problems with the 4.7 Field Guns were due to these guns being literally ' worn out ', and they were replaced just as soon as the new 60 Pounders became available. The diminishing role of the 4.7 inch Field Gun on the Western Front can be seen by the start of the Battle of the Somme when only 32 x 4.7 inch Field Guns were in action, as compared with 128 x 60 Pounders.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With reference to post # 3286, are the chalked markings on the side of the Ammunition Limber listing the number and types of shells contained in the limber ?

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In addition to the 4.7 inch Field Guns being in action during the opening phases of WW1, the 4.7 inch Naval Gun was also in action.

The attached photograph dated 9th October, 1914, shows men of the Royal Navy Division coming from Saint-Gilles-Waes ( North Flanders ) aboard a train, which on nearing Ostend, is passing an Armoured Train on which is mounted a 4.7 inch Naval Gun with its crew of naval gunners.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[David Filsell]

I think this is probably the wagon - or one of the wagons - , the,which were later armoured and used to support Rawlinson's 4th Corps (which included 7th Inf Div) at Ypres

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I think this is probably the wagon - or one of the wagons - , the,which were later armoured and used to support Rawlinson's 4th Corps (which included 7th Inf Div) at Ypres

David,

I am sure you are correct, and the photograph in post #3291 is of one of the 3 H.M.A.T. ( His Majesty's Armoured Train ) used in Belgium at the start of WW1.

There was an article relating to these 3 H.M.A.T's named ' Churchill ', 'Jellicoe ' and ' Deguise ', posted on the Forum back in November 2005 by member De Petrowski Alexander, as follows :-

" Three heavily armoured trains (Brit-Belgian) were build in Antwerp during september and october, Winston Churchill decided in early september to reinforce Antwerp with British Naval Guns, on the 9th, Lt. Cdr. Littlejohns arrived in Antwerp with six (4.7 Inch) and two (6 Inch) Guns + six Gunners. It was decided by the Belgian HQ to put them on armoured trains, CO of the armoured trains became Lt. Cdr. Littlejohns, each crew consisting of 70 Belgian volunteers + two machinists + 2 British Gunners, the first was ready on the 15th, with three 4.7 Inch Guns (CO Belgian Capt. Servais), the second (also three 4.7 Inch) was ready on the 27th, (CO British Lt. Robinson) they fought around Antwerp until the 7th of october, then retreated via Ghent, supported General Rawlinson's advance to Ypres, the third train (two 6 Inch) became operational (CO British Lt. Ridler) at Oostende after the retreat from Antwerp. They fought between Nieuwpoort (Nieuport) and La Bassee until late march 1915 when all three were withdrawn, They were known from 9th of november onwards as (His Majesty's Armoured Train)

H.M.A.T. "Churchill" (Lt. Ridler) two 6 Inch Guns

H.M.A.T. "Deguise" (Capt. Servais) three 4.7 Inch

H.M.A.T. "Jellicoe" (Lt. Cdr. Littlejohns) three 4.7 Inch

They stood still at the station of Marquise from april to september 1915 and were then dismantled. "

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is a photograph captioned as having been taken aboard H.M.A.T. ' Jellicoe ' near Antwerp, and shows The H.M.A.T.'s Royal Naval Division gunners.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is another reference to a British Armoured Train being in action at Ypres :-

October 20 1914

Around Ypres, the Germans attacked on all sides. In the south, the British are driven further away from Comines. Near the Menin road, Gunner C.B. Burrows of the 7th Division recalled from slightly behind the lines:

" Tuesday October 20th. Move off at 4.30 a.m., go forward about a mile and go into action at 7 a.m. in a turnip field near a farm. The farm is deserted. In a lull a driver and I go to the farm and have a look round. The poor cows have not been milked. A dog chained to a kennel is raving mad. We can’t get near it to help it — and there are puppies with it. A meal is still on the table. The people must have fled at a moment’s notice. Get back to our guns. Heavy artillery fire to our right. The battery starts firing again at 9 a.m. and we fire at intervals for about 6 hours all told. Heard that the enemy’s infantry were attacking very fiercely.

About 10 a.m. a naval armoured train arrives just to our right. It had 2 six-inch and 1 four-inch naval guns, manned by sailors. They must be giving the enemy a hard time as they fire continuously as fast as they can

. Our battery fires all day.

The news is that we are slaughtering them, as they were attacking in mass formation. Heard we have captured 300 prisoners and disabled 44 guns. We keep firing until dark, then retire to a small village and billet there. All the houses are deserted. Move off again at 10 p.m. for a night attack and go into action in the same place. Second day of battle. "

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A photograph showing a British sailor ( Royal Naval Division ) and Belgian troops aboard one of the British Armoured Trains ( H.M.A.T. ) used during the First Battle of Ypres.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Another photograph showing the armoured ' trench ' like corridors leading to the firing platforms on the British Armoured Trains, which were crewed by British sailors from the Royal Naval Division and Belgian troops, which saw action in Flanders.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[David Filsell]

LF

Yes they were the shots I had in mind. Have you a source for the Burrows quote?

Best regards

DF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Yes they were the shots I had in mind. Have you a source for the Burrows quote?

David,

Here is the link containing the Gunner Burrows' quote, it is in the section dated October 20, 1914 " General German Offensive in Flanders Begins ".

http://today-in-wwi.tumblr.com/page/15

Regards,

LF